How does this round compare to modern .357 magnums and 9mm duty loads.
How does this round compare to modern .357 magnums and 9mm duty loads.
Contacting Mr Wayne Dobbs - Please pick up the courtesy phone.
That was the issued round for the Dallas Police Department, the Texas Department of Public Safety, and other agencies.
According to a conversation I had with Wayne a few weeks ago "It did the Lord's work." DB also told me "it killed like the plague."
I bought a case of it at GT Distributers here in Dallas a few weeks ago for my long-term lever gun needs. The Dallas PD traded in a bunch of gear and ammo recently, and that was in the deal. I plan on hanging a can on a Winchester 94 Trapper i own, and smiting a substantial number of deer with it.
Doctor Roberts might be able to share some comparison data on newer loads. Also, I believe Mr Boone who retired from the FBI could also have some data to share. I can ping Chuck Haggard as well.
Hope that helps.
I believe it did fairly well in gel testing... But don't hold me to it. Winchester stopped packaging it in 50rd boxes, and raised the price through the roof, so I lost interest in finding any. It'll be interesting to see if the new HST load is ever available in 50rd boxes (I wont hold my breath).
I’m pretty sure it still kicks ass, for a handgun round. Might not be the best for intense windshield-to-windshield fighting, but I wouldn’t feel unarmed against almost anything warm-blooded that I could ever expect to have to shoot where I live. We’ve had some threads here over the years where people who are actually experts have said somewhat the same thing, FWIW.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
I think that at least one person here - @JonInWA? - had issues with the current production stuff. IIRC, his GP100 couldn't set it off due to hard primers.
In looking at the tests done by Lucky Gunner...almost no .357 round fired from a 4" barrel underpenetrated and almost all expanded.
It strikes me that darn near every .357 round had good expansion, (although some certainly overpenetrated)
Perhaps that's why the .357 enjoyed such a good reputation? It basically offered 9mm terminal ballistics seen today along with an "authoritative" flash and report (especially from shorter barrels) that just got people thinking that maybe they didn't want to find out as much as they previously wanted to fuck around.
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It was me. And I really wanted the stuff to work, but it simply had too many primer failures. It was last year that I had the issues, with current production 145gr Silvertips. Mine were run in a Ruger GP100 with a new full strength factory mainspring. After the failures, and discussions with a Winchester product manager, I sent the remainder to Olin Winchester for analysis; they reported back that it was "within specifications." They partially reimbursed me, but when I challenged them to provide me with a sufficient amount to run for a match, crickets was the response.Originally Posted by revchuck38
I settled on 158 gr Federal HydraShok as my carry load. It has a decent reputation, and performs flawlessly for me.
Best, Jon
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To add a little personal theory to your solid points - If close enough, especially in an enclosed space, there is also the felt muzzle pressure in multiple major segments of the body.
03RN has mentioned range officers immediately stepping back when starts firing on a stage. Taking some of that chest and stomach rumble with a windy face slap is likely more responsible than just the noise. Now put yourself downrange in reduced light with all of that going on at once plus a gunshot wound.
It's a shame Darryl Bolke no longer posts here but maybe Wayne Dobbs can confirm a point. In some podcast interview or other, Bolke had mentioned black powder loads like J.H. Fitzgerald* had run in his .45 snubs and blackpowder guns in general. He briefly laid out a theory that they sounded so guttural in addition to the flash and sulphurous smoke that people experienced in being around the handgun fire of today might be given pause.
* My copy of his book is on another floor and I am lazy but, if I recall correctly, he indexed his Fitzed revolvers to have four shots of blackpoder cartridges up first and the final two smokeless. His reasoning had to do with greater muzzle velocity attainable from hot BP loads versus the smokeless available at the time. The final two smokeless loads were a result of autistic experimentation with regards to fouling. Adding this footnote to clarify that I don't recall a full sensory experience by the recipient to be part of his reasoning. At least on paper.
I'd love to acquire some of Win ST rounds to try in my 4" S&W 686 and Marlin 1894C. As soon as the second mortgage is approved I may have enough $$ to buy some!
Re the non-ballistic effects of the .357 in a closed space, I recently took the 686 to a local indoor range and included in the selection of ammo I took was a box of Federal 357B, the 125 gr. JHP that was often carried by LE back in the day. It happened that there were no ARs or AKs present, just handguns. By the time I'd finished a cylinder-full of the Fed rounds, the folks for several positions on either side of me were staring with WTF looks on their faces; I was kinda feeling that way myself. Partly it was the noise, partly the flash, easily visible even at the well-lit range. I left off the Fed flash-bangs at that point and just shot Hornady 158 gr. XTPs, which seemed pretty reasonable by comparison. Folks seemed relieved that the howitzer practice was short-lived.
I could post more
RO is also a fellow infantry Marine fwiw.
On the ragged edge of the world I'll roam,
And the home of the wolf shall be my home - Robert Service
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