Explain Like I'm 5: Weaver/Modern Technique vs. Isosceles

[P30]

Jack Bauer seems to be employing the hybrid tea-cup method(?). I still see actors using that same old style on TV and in movies.

Is that not the usual Hollywood BS? Does not look to me as if Mr Bauer is a good shooter (maybe with a pea gun but not with a 9 mm).

PS:
Also note how low he grips the pistol with his right hand. Very bad grip and stance.

[Redhat]

Is that not the usual Hollywood BS? Does not look to me as if Mr Bauer is a good shooter (maybe with a pea gun but not with a 9 mm).

I don't expect a lot from actors but I find it somewhat amusing that the people who train them have not yet moved on.

[Clusterfrack]

Additional points/questions about isosceles:

What about bending the elbows a bit and moving them up so that they point outward?
I do so and think most good shooters do. Compared to fingers and wrists, the elbows are quite relaxed, shoulders are also relaxed. Elbows act as shock absorbers. In effect during recoil, gun and muzzle move less upward but a bit backward.

What about isometric tension or overextension in the wrists?
I think the wrists should not be limp. I'm not sure if tension in the wrists comes automatically by gripping the gun hard or is an extra/deliberate effort.

There's a lot of different approaches to this, so I can only tell you what's worked for me and what has not.

What works for me:

• Relaxation with tension only where needed.
• Good posture, spine straight, with weight slightly forward.
• Head erect, so I look through the sights with my eyes centered.
• A firm grip that does not allow the gun to move inside the hands.
• Very stiff wrists, but not uncomfortable. Wrist tension and grip tension are not directly related, but it takes practice to figure this out.
• Elbows extended but not hyperextended or locked out.
• Shoulders (and elbows) comfortable.
• Hips mobile to free upper from lower body (because a lot of practical shooting doesn't allow us to be in the ideal position).

What does not work for me:

• Trying to fight recoil with tension.
• Tactical turtle
• "Captains of Crush" grip.
• Twisting arms outward to increase grip pressure. (I am NOT a Vogel fan when it comes to technique).
• Anything uncomfortable.

[P30]

What does not work for me: [...] Twisting arms outward to increase grip pressure.

I also do not significantly increase grip pressure by lifting the elbows. I lift the elbows up quite relaxed so that they stay quite loose - a bit like chicken wings. Reduces muzzle flip for me.

Try:
Let the elbows sink totally down so that they point downward. How can the hands move in recoil? They can only rotate around the elbow and move mainly upward (-> excessive muzzle flip).
Now bend the elbows and move them up so that they point outward. Now during recoil, the hands can naturally move backward and are not forced by the bone structure to move up (-> less muzzle flip and the elbow joints become natural shock absorbers).

[Clusterfrack]

I also do not significantly increase grip pressure by lifting the elbows. I lift the elbows up quite relaxed so that they stay quite loose - a bit like chicken wings. Reduces muzzle flip for me.

Try:
Let the elbows sink totally down. How can the hands move in recoil? They can only rotate around the elbow and move mainly upward (-> excessive muzzle flip).
Now bend the elbows and move them up so that they point outward. Now during recoil, the hands can naturally move backward and are not forced by the bone structure to move up (-> less muzzle flip and the elbow joints become natural shock absorbers).

Agree. That’s the position my shoulders and elbows are naturally. Like the most comfortable angle to do fist pushups.

But maybe not chicken wing…

[wrmettler]

I was told by someone who should know that actors use an exaggerated weaver stance because they want their face on camera. They don’t care about technique, just getting face time.

And I was told by another someone who should know that the isosceles stand allowed shooters to move better than the weaver stance.

[P30]

Relaxation with tension only where needed.

I suppose that the percentage p of maximum force in the muscles should decrease from the fingers to the belly.

Like so:

70%..90% ≈ p(fingers) ≈ p(wrists) > p(elbows) > p(shoulders) ≈ p(chest) ≈ p(belly) ≈ 0%

Reasoning:
We want to minimize pistol movement and especially muzzle flip.
As a model, imagine the parts of the body as a chain. The links become heavier from the fingers (first link) to the belly (last link).
In recoil, the movement is greatest in the weakest link.
So there should be a lot of stabilizing force in the beginning of the chain, which holds the pistol, and only very little or none at the end (belly).

Do you agree?

[P30]

What does not work for me: [...] "Captains of Crush" grip.

I think we should differentiate here.

The maximum force F_max that the fingers can generate should be BIG.
So let's strengthen the fingers from time to time for a "Captains of Crush" grip.
But the percentage of F_max in the fingers that we apply when shooting is not 100%, it's maybe 80% (but the applied force is greater than a weak guy's 100%).

[Clusterfrack]

I suppose that the percentage p of maximum force in the muscles should decrease from the fingers to the belly.

Like so:

70%..90% ≈ p(fingers) ≈ p(wrists) > p(elbows) > p(shoulders) ≈ p(chest) ≈ p(belly) ≈ 0%

Reasoning:
We want to minimize pistol movement and especially muzzle flip.
As a model, imagine the parts of the body as a chain. The links become heavier from the fingers (first link) to the belly (last link).
In recoil, the movement is greatest in the weakest link.
So there should be a lot of stabilizing force in the beginning of the chain, which holds the pistol, and only very little or none at the end (belly).

Do you agree?

I think we should differentiate here.

The maximum force F_max that the fingers can generate should be BIG.
So let's strengthen the fingers from time to time for a "Captains of Crush" grip.
But the percentage of F_max in the fingers that we apply when shooting is not 100%, it's maybe 80% (but the applied force is greater than a weak guy's 100%).

Because our hands are grasping devices, a simple 3-link lever system doesn't apply directly. When we grip something, our fingers wrap around it. So, the field of forces preventing motion range from perpendicular vectors (compression) to parallel vectors (friction). A good two-handed grip relies on both to keep the gun from sliding inside the grip. To get a sense of how each type of force applies, compare flip of a smooth gun in slippery hands to a textured gun in dry hands. The smooth/slippery situation requires massive hand strength to keep the gun from slipping inside the hands, but otherwise most adult males can do it without much effort.

Search for videos of the Williams sisters, who were USPSA GMs in their early teens. One doesn't need to be able to close #2+ Captains of Crush to keep a 9mm handgun from slipping. In fact, Vogel's approach of CRUSHING the gun has caused a lot of hand injuries, including my own. I think it's a bad idea from a really great shooter who happens to be really strong.

But, if the shooter has a wonky trigger press, a strong grip can mask the effect--although it can also amplify it through sympathetic contraction of the fingers. I'm not a fan of that, and prefer to just practice pulling the trigger straight.

You are right about the wrist part of the chain. That needs a decent amount of strength to keep stiff. However even if the gun flips a lot, that can be ok as long as it flips in a predictable way (straight up). Then we can return the gun straight down and fire the next shot.

[P30]

OK, so in short:

For a good grip and stance, it's not only bone arrangement and force distribution which matter. // that's what I was talking about
It's also friction and predictability (especially always a straight up muzzle flip). // added by Clusterfrack

Thank you.