Does anyone shoot HK P30 LEM's to a high level?

[GJM]

The appeal of the P30, frankly, was not the LEM trigger. The P30 was an accurate, reliable, and durable pistol, with perhaps the best magazines of any pistol, during a time when other pistols were not universally accurate, reliable and durable. You learned to manage the LEM trigger, as the price of all the other benefits of the P30.

Now that there are many other accurate, reliable and durable pistols, that also come with easier to shoot triggers and optics ready from the factory, the P30's ship has mostly sailed. YVK takes his $1,000 GGI trigger P30 out of the safe every other year for one range session of nostalgia, Darryl Bolke hasn't carried a LEM for years, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone shooting a P30. If I was to carry a P30, it would be one of my P30L DA/SA pistols that actually have darn good triggers.

[P30]

I don't shoot as much as some of you here do. So my point of view is more that of an average shooter, maybe also interesting to some.

You probably will not shoot your fastest splits using a P30 with an LEM primarily because of the long-ish reset.

I agree a lot. There is a short reset modification from Grayguns, but I have not tried it yet.

Note that his splits to the 3x5 card were actually faster than with the G17

If you are measuring performance in terms of longer range accuracy, the P30 tends to be a very accurate pistol.

My experience is that very accurate quite fast hits (3x5 card @ 7 yd or B8 target @ 25 yd) are a significant advantage of the P30 LEM (V4 CH in my case) compared to G17. Reasons: P30 trigger break is better and probably also the gun's own accuracy.

If you mean manipulations, look at Todd's reloads on the FAST. They were roughly the same between the P30 and the Glock or the 1911, both faster than he got from the 9mm 1911 (with a mag well) he tested.

I wonder why his reloads were not even faster with the P30 than with the G17. I like the paddle mag release and the slide release lever of the P30 very much (I press the paddle with my trigger finger). Can reload much faster than with my G19.

My favorite P30 trigger variant is V4 CH (also tried V2, V3 and V4). V4 has a medium trigger weight. "CH" means that it was developed for Swiss police and its trigger take-up is shortened compared to the other LEM variants.

[Archer1440]

As a sort of "carry gun vs carry gun" comparison this past weekend, I ran my carry P30L GGI SA/DA with HD/XR irons vs my carry VP9L with ACRO P2, in steel challenge, back to back, alternating between stages. CO for the dot gun and Prod for the TDA.

Amusingly, I was consistently .03 seconds faster, overall, with the P30L. Which probably speaks to my relative speed with irons vs dot, even after putting in a lot of work on the dot since 2017.

I'm obviously no speed poster child (as YVK can certainly attest) but it was an interesting exercise. I also never missed the first DA shot throughout the entire exercise, which was kind of nice.

Unfortunately our Commander timer wasn't synched to the scoring pad, hence manual input, and so I can't analyze the string and split data from that match, but the consistency of that .03 second difference was interesting.

[joshs]

I think @joshs either made an A class or shot a few A-level classifiers.

I'm pretty sure I made A while shooting a P30 LEM. I had a pretty similar experience to Todd shooting the LEM. With good technique, I could shoot a P30 similarly to other guns, but the trigger is definitely less forgiving of errors than most SFA or TDA triggers. I haven't shot one for awhile, but I remember there being a small hitch/ramp up in the trigger weight just before the break point that made it a relatively easy trigger to anticipate. That combined with the long reset took a little more attention when going fast than other triggers. Learning to shoot the LEM trigger did help me to develop better fundamentals that have carried over to shooting other types of triggers.

[JonInWA]

The appeal of the P30, frankly, was not the LEM trigger. The P30 was an accurate, reliable, and durable pistol, with perhaps the best magazines of any pistol, during a time when other pistols were not universally accurate, reliable and durable. You learned to manage the LEM trigger, as the price of all the other benefits of the P30.

Now that there are many other accurate, reliable and durable pistols, that also come with easier to shoot triggers and optics ready from the factory, the P30's ship has mostly sailed. YVK takes his $1,000 GGI trigger P30 out of the safe every other year for one range session of nostalgia, Darryl Bolke hasn't carried a LEM for years, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone shooting a P30. If I was to carry a P30, it would be one of my P30L DA/SA pistols that actually have darn good triggers.

GJM, I suspect that p-f members probably constituted a disproportionate constituency of P30 LEM sales. Part of that is that there's probably a higher proportion of "real" users here than on other forums (or organizations, for that matter) and that Darryl and Todd (and others here on p-f) were very effective advocates for the system.

However, even in what was likely its heyday, LEM pistols probably constituted a minority of HK sales, and P30 sales, with their other models (particularly their DA/SA) likely predominating. So if you wanted a P30, as I recall there was a much higher likelihood of it being easier to access and obtain a V3 DA/SA P30/P30L than a P30 LEM. I think that users of LEM had made a conscious decision to do so, rather than having to wrestle with LEM because they had to. I haven't conversed with him for awhile, but I suspect that Darryl has moved to other systems because he's retired, and more shootable systems are now more applicable to him, as threat management with a weapon is now less likely. In his epic LEM thread, he stated that if he was back on Patrol, he would likely choose a HK45 LEM as his duty weapon-but he isn't on Patrol, and his likely situational encounters, particularly those potentially involving weapon use have significantly changed, likely mitigating for different platform/action choices. Hopefully, at some point Darryl will chime in on this thread.

I value LEM for what it is-a system that extends your decision making capabilities and options, while still remaining quite shootable-but with more extensive (and continuous) training and familiarization necessary. And not as simply shootable as other actions. And, or course, complimented with all the excellent inherent qualities of the P30.

My personal situation has also changed. My wife and I chose to go to another church, so after successfully running the security team for a fairly large metro church for some 6 years, I'm now, at least for the time being just a church attendee. But should I go back on duty, there's a high likelihood that my platform of choice would be my P30L V1.5 LEM, or Beretta 92D DAO.

Best, Jon

[LukeNCMX]

I've never tried an LEM trigger. My question to the experienced:

Am I correct that a big selling point of a LEM over TDA is that you do not need to remember to decock?

I read anecdotes that LEM triggers require a training dedication level above the other platforms to access high levels of performance.

If someone is prepared to take on a greater dedication, why not learn decocking and enjoy TDA?


A bigger question: When does performance matter more than mechanical safeguards?

[MVS]

The appeal of the P30, frankly, was not the LEM trigger. The P30 was an accurate, reliable, and durable pistol, with perhaps the best magazines of any pistol, during a time when other pistols were not universally accurate, reliable and durable. You learned to manage the LEM trigger, as the price of all the other benefits of the P30.

Now that there are many other accurate, reliable and durable pistols, that also come with easier to shoot triggers and optics ready from the factory, the P30's ship has mostly sailed. YVK takes his $1,000 GGI trigger P30 out of the safe every other year for one range session of nostalgia, Darryl Bolke hasn't carried a LEM for years, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone shooting a P30. If I was to carry a P30, it would be one of my P30L DA/SA pistols that actually have darn good triggers.

Yes to all that. I should mention because I wasn't clear in the OP, this would not be for competition, it would be a training/class gun and just because. What I should probably do is just go ahead and get a Q4 SF to back up my Q5 and be done with it. Same holsters, same mags, accurate, easy to shoot.

[Borderland]

I've never tried an LEM trigger. My question to the experienced:

Am I correct that a big selling point of a LEM over TDA is that you do not need to remember to decock?

I read anecdotes that LEM triggers require a training dedication level above the other platforms to access high levels of performance.

If someone is prepared to take on a greater dedication, why not learn decocking and enjoy TDA?


A bigger question: When does performance matter more than mechanical safeguards?

My P-30 LEM doesn't have a decocker. It's basically a DA pistol w/o a safety.

As far as decockers go, Sig refined their SA trigger with SRT. I have several and like those. The current tidal wave of strikers has made the new pistols less available though.

I think everyone has to determine the tradeoffs with different actions/triggers individually. The only way to do that is shoot one for awhile and decide what works for you. Then train with it exclusively.

[HCM]

I've never tried an LEM trigger. My question to the experienced:

Am I correct that a big selling point of a LEM over TDA is that you do not need to remember to decock?

Sort of. That’s the selling point of DAO guns in general. The LEM (and SIG’s DAK) were supposed to give all the handling benefits of DAO with a lighter / more shootable trigger for minimally trained people. LEM was literally created for institutional users.

I read anecdotes that LEM triggers require a training dedication level above the other platforms to access high levels of performance.

That was my experience (both personal and observed in others) during 8 years carrying an agency issued LEM.

If someone is prepared to take on a greater dedication, why not learn decocking and enjoy TDA?

For an individual, TDA is the way to go. LEM exists for institutions that want mechanical solutions to safe handling and marksmanship issues. Because mechanical solutions are cheaper and easier than adequate training. The man hours for an 8 hour training day normally exceed the cost of the guns and ammo used.


A bigger question: When does performance matter more than mechanical safeguards?

When it’s YOUR life (or the life of someone you care about) vs someone else who you don’t know or care about.

[TCinVA]

I've never tried an LEM trigger. My question to the experienced:

Am I correct that a big selling point of a LEM over TDA is that you do not need to remember to decock?

The larger benefit is a consistent trigger press from shot to shot. Many struggle with the DA/SA transition. Going back to one these days I find myself struggling with it a bit, too.

The LEM essentially partially cocked the hammer allowing a long but light takeup with a relatively short but smooth trigger press. (My guns don't stack the way Josh describes) It allows you to have essentially a DA trigger that is easily manageable.

A bigger question: When does performance matter more than mechanical safeguards?

[/quote]

If you walk to a stage with an unloaded gun, load and make ready on the stage when its clear in front of you in a competition holster, shoot the stage, and then unload and show clear...that's a pretty safe way to handle firearms. Your gun stays cased and unloaded except when you are actually about to shoot the gun, and then it is immediately unloaded when you are done with the shooting task.

That has zero resemblance to defensive use of the pistol where you are walking around with it loaded and are going to have to use it with no notice and under circumstances that are manifestly not remotely close to safe or controlled. Your environment will be filled with other human beings who don't deserve to catch a bullet.

Matches are designed to be safe.

The real world manifestly is not.

If you are shooting at a match, do all the racegun shit you want.

If you are carrying a gun to stop someone from killing you, then the consequences for fucking up are immense. Potentially vastly beyond your ability to bear them.

I can't tell you where to draw that line. All I can tell you is that most people drawing it probably aren't doing so with a full recognition of just how much risk they are adopting when they do it.