Revolver standards?

[camel]

The problem does not change because of the gear one chose.

So if I may ask. What are the basic acceptable standards?

I’m just quoting to really ask the question.

[JCN]

I still like the Defoor Hat Qual and Bakersfield PD test.

Great choices. I think the FBI 50 round test is also decent if shot to 50/50 standard or reduced time parameter. It’s doable with a revolver at the semi-auto par as well.

[1Rangemaster]

The problem does not change because of the gear one chose.

Well, yes, but there is a dependency on context and what skills should be prioritized. I can’t think of any agencies or organizations in the US that issue revolvers exclusively. I believe NYPD “retired” its last revolver last year, so we are talking about individual choices.
In the contexts of accuracy and speed, I would think shooting standards could/should be the same. Where the revolver could benefit would be on reloading, whether a “tactical load”-bringing the gun up to full capacity-or an emergency speed load. Clint Smith points out that you have to “take a revolver partially apart” to load it. But is speed of the load after a certain point really that important?
Wizards such as Miculek and dedicated practitioners like Caleb Giddings can perform reloads at speeds that are startling to me (at least), and more power to them! If an auto shooter knows a load is coming in a qual or competition, they can get to a second and maybe a little change, and that’s important in those contexts, as @JCN points out in a way.
Cooper commented a long time ago that autos are easier for dedicated personnel to come up to speed with- just less manipulation, usually better triggers (in stock form), reload quicker, etc. One does have to pay attention to mechanical safety.
If I can get a student to do a 3-4 second “ surprise” reload with any system, to include flap pouches, concealed, speedloaders, etc., I’d consider that a good start. If they want to get better, great, but NOT at the expense of hits at speed.
From a “Shrek” challenge drill, single target: 3 rounds into 3 inches at 3yards in 3 seconds should be doable with any modern weapon, imho. Most here could do that practically with their eyes closed…

[jlw]

The Bakersfield Qual that has been discussed at length here allows six seconds for the reload stage with an auto and eight seconds for a revolver.

An empty wheelgun and an empty auto are the same problem.

If I am accosted by two armed robbers, the problem is the same whether I am carrying a G19 or a Model 19.

One should not choose to carry a wheelgun and then whine about “fair” or the fact that a revolver holds less ammo and takes longer to reload.

[JCN]

The Bakersfield Qual that has been discussed at length here allows six seconds for the reload stage with an auto and eight seconds for a revolver.

An empty wheelgun and an empty auto are the same problem.

If I am accosted by two armed robbers, the problem is the same whether I am carrying a G19 or a Model 19.

One should not choose to carry a wheelgun and then whine about “fair” or the fact that a revolver holds less ammo and takes longer to reload.

That’s disingenuous and makes a number of assumptions.

Who says that a wheel gunner is only carrying one gun?

Or that someone with a semi carries a reload at all?

What someone chooses to carry is a separate question from what is a baseline proficiency standard.

So pick your test to address the specific skill or lack thereof.

Hey, I could design a standard test that favors a wheel gunner.

4 shot drill with one dead cartridge.

Wheel gunner just pulls trigger 5 times. Semi auto has to recognize and clear malf and get back on target. Who wins?

It’s not a test of skill, it’s a test of equipment.

If there is a 6 round reload semiauto drill, can I just skip the reload with a high cap magazine?

That’s the kind of logic that follows “they only chose a gun with 15 rounds and I carry a 25 round primary mag…”

But at some point you have to decide what it is you’re testing with a standard and how that does or doesn’t apply to what people carry and civilian self defense.

Like @1Rangemaster said, context and priorities for a standard may be different.





I think a test that requires good hits at a 0.25 pace is revolver neutral and probably all that would be required in speed for a self defense / self assessment standard. Something that requires 0.20 splits isn’t realistic for a revolver and also probably does not accurately reflect a meaningful difference in self defense performance.

[jetfire]

That’s disingenuous and makes a number of assumptions.

Who says that a wheel gunner is only carrying one gun?

Or that someone with a semi carries a reload at all?

What someone chooses to carry is a separate question from what is a baseline proficiency standard.

So pick your test to address the specific skill or lack thereof.

Hey, I could design a standard test that favors a wheel gunner.

4 shot drill with one dead cartridge.

Wheel gunner just pulls trigger 5 times. Semi auto has to recognize and clear malf and get back on target. Who wins?

It’s not a test of skill, it’s a test of equipment.

If there is a 6 round reload semiauto drill, can I just skip the reload with a high cap magazine?

That’s the kind of logic that follows “they only chose a gun with 15 rounds and I carry a 25 round primary mag…”

But at some point you have to decide what it is you’re testing with a standard and how that does or doesn’t apply to what people carry and civilian self defense.

Like @1Rangemaster said, context and priorities for a standard may be different.





I think a test that requires good hits at a 0.25 pace is revolver neutral and probably all that would be required in speed for a self defense / self assessment standard. Something that requires 0.20 splits isn’t realistic for a revolver and also probably does not accurately reflect a meaningful difference in self defense performance.

Re: splits, I’m starting to get down under 0.25 routinely with a basically stock gun. One of my Bill Drills at Gabe’s class had a 1.25 draw with a total 2.4 time, which put my average split at 0.23 for that run. If I had a faster draw…

[JCN]

Re: splits, I’m starting to get down under 0.25 routinely with a basically stock gun. One of my Bill Drills at Gabe’s class had a 1.25 draw with a total 2.4 time, which put my average split at 0.23 for that run. If I had a faster draw…

I’m talking about a general standard for general B class proficiency.

You and I do semi-auto challenges with revolvers because we like the challenge and we are awesome but that’s not a realistic “standard” for testing.

[Totem Polar]

I really don’t pay that much attention the issue. We all know the strengths/weaknesses; get back to practicing.

They’re just different tools for different situations. I’ve shot a decent number of classes where I was the only wheelgunner in a bay full of auto loaders. Yet, I still always end up being one of the top scores if there’s some sort of qual. I started out like that in the 90s, taking top shot at LFI-1 with a K-frame, and not too long ago I ended up with the second highest score at a class that concluded with some sort of “nuclear security personnel” qual, with a 204. The guy who took the high score—with 224 out of 240, IIRC, was a retired army interservice pistol champ, running a full-size auto. One leg of the qual required shoot 6, reload, shoot 6 from the holster in 8 seconds. I lost 24 points there, because I couldn’t get the second 6 off, and there were 2 passes on that leg (I got the first shot off after the reload on the second pass right as the target turned back sideways; close, but no dice). Maybe if I was running a G17, I would have met or beat the other guy—the revolver’s reload speed absolutely hampered me on that particular test. If the qual had not required the two timed reload stages, I might have been the top performer.

But, hey, I still took second… and, more importantly, I’m not a nuclear facility guard, and I don’t foresee myself ever becoming one.

Obviously, a high round count class suggests running an auto, just because it’s the right tool for the job—in the same way that it’s the right tool for LE or .Mil. But for classes with a lower shooting tempo, aimed at a joe dude like myself, living the J-frame lifestyle, I don’t particularly feel that it matters. For my particular needs, a handgun that is easier to charge, store, make safe or empty, or neglect is a benefit. Look at the job, pick the tool.

But I digress. I’m fine with the same standards, outside of gaming, and let the chips fall where they may, so we all know the value of the chips. JMO.

[JCN]

@Totem Polar you should have asked permission for a NY reload…

[gtmtnbiker98]

The problem does not change because of the gear one chose.

Wow, that's some Yoda shit.