Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 64

Thread: Reactive vs Predictive shooting

  1. #21
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    @Clusterfrack and I have discussions about this but I still dislike the terms predictive versus reactive.

    It adds an unnecessary dichotomy to something that is a continuum in most situations.

    Iím predicting AND reacting on almost every shot to what came before it.
    I've been thinking about this, and went in a sciencey direction:

    While there is a continuum, there is a threshold of time below which neural feedback isn't fast enough to adjust forces at the muscles (to affect what the gun does before it fires). Sensory input is still flowing, so one can react to that, but only in the next cycle (shot). This is termed "feedforward" control, as opposed to continuous neural feedback.

    Feedforward control is driven by central pattern generators ("clocks") in the brain, and can set the basic patterns of cyclic motion. Most of how we move our bodies involves a combination of feedforward clock with mechanical feedback, and neural feedback. If you run fast across rough terrain, you use a lot of feedforward control. If you trip, it can take several steps to respond to a stumble.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  2. #22
    To me, predictive shooting is when you run the trigger and sights together, or biased to trigger and then sights, rather than biased to sights before trigger.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I've been thinking about this, and went in a sciencey direction:

    While there is a continuum, there is a threshold of time below which neural feedback isn't fast enough to adjust forces at the muscles (to affect what the gun does before it fires). Sensory input is still flowing, so one can react to that, but only in the next cycle (shot). This is termed "feedforward" control, as opposed to continuous neural feedback.

    Feedforward control is driven by central pattern generators ("clocks") in the brain, and can set the basic patterns of cyclic motion. Most of how we move our bodies involves a combination of feedforward clock with mechanical feedback, and neural feedback. If you run fast across rough terrain, you use a lot of feedforward control. If you trip, it can take several steps to respond to a stumble.
    I guess I would say I'm continually reacting to whether or not I can predict or need to react some more.

    I think this is where some stuff gets lost in 'shooting at assessment speed' and 'not outrunning your headlights'.

    The running on rough terrain thing is a wonderful analogy.

  4. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    1984
    To me predictive shooting is when you can see you sights but you do not have time to react on them. You just know with almost 100% probability, the hits will be acceptable. Therefore, - "predictive" . It is an evolving skill. Some people can predict their very fast hits on open target at 3 yrds, and some - 15 yrds. Skilled shooters can shoot more difficult targets this way. That is why they are winning. Rob Leatham is still doing okay not because he can run fast; but because he can shoot farther targets predictably, that is faster.

  5. #25
    I think about this in this way:

    Reactive: Shooting at a rate where I can significantly change the next shot based mostly off visual input.

    Predictive: Shooting at a rate where I canít significantly change the next shot based off visual input but I am still seeing and feeling everything happening in real time.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter David S.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    DFW
    Quote Originally Posted by MickAK View Post
    I think this is where some stuff gets lost in 'shooting at assessment speed' and 'not outrunning your headlights'.
    As I understand it, Assessment Shooting is a third level, where your decision to fire each shot is not only a reaction to seeing sights acceptably on target (Reactive Shooting), but also based on whether the deadly force is still justifiable.
    David S.

  7. #27
    Focus JCN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    in a really good place
    Quote Originally Posted by cheby View Post
    To me predictive shooting is when you can see you sights but you do not have time to react on them. You just know with almost 100% probability, the hits will be acceptable. Therefore, - "predictive" . It is an evolving skill. Some people can predict their very fast hits on open target at 3 yrds, and some - 15 yrds. Skilled shooters can shoot more difficult targets this way. That is why they are winning. Rob Leatham is still doing okay not because he can run fast; but because he can shoot farther targets predictably, that is faster.
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeNCMX View Post
    I think about this in this way:

    Reactive: Shooting at a rate where I can significantly change the next shot based mostly off visual input.

    Predictive: Shooting at a rate where I canít significantly change the next shot based off visual input but I am still seeing and feeling everything happening in real time.
    I guess this is why I don't really understand the dichotomy.

    The better your mechanics, the less variability.

    The less variability, the more reproducible.

    The more reproducible, the more confidently you can cue the timing of your NEXT shot based off the movement in recoil of your PREVIOUS shot (or draw or transition or mount).

    The more reproducible, the less correction needed so less reaction needed....

    Isn't that the goal? Why wouldn't it be the goal.

    Dry fire is T-ball. The place to work on static mechanics. Live fire should be all about timing the next trigger press off the previous shot or off a movement. That's why I designed the SWYNTS drill to get people to SEE their mechanics at different speeds and work the vision and timing together at different paces.

    @Clusterfrack using the running analogy.

    When running, it's not independently triggered steps. The next step is triggered off the previous step. Just like the trigger press in a double is initiated off the recoil vision of the previous shot. Agree?

    But if running and you catch your foot on a twig early on in the next step... you're still able to modify that step TIMING AND PLACEMENT with supporting muscles to delay when that foot hits the ground and where it hits. You might counterbalance with your arms and wind up taking a larger, later, more forward step with your foot.

    Same thing with the shooting. The initiation of the trigger press decision comes early, but the hand tension and wrist tension can still modify the gun placement AS THE TRIGGER IS MOVING to micro adjust the bullet impact.

    I'll also mention again that Max Michel doesn't use that kind of breakdown (predictive / reactive) in his teaching. He's more of a continuum guy and continue to improve your skills to learn dynamic timing. I almost feel that focusing on anything reactive is a step backwards because the eventual goal is to be able to streamline the mechanics as much as possible to make confident hits as early as possible.

  8. #28
    In the continuum from accurate to fast, I think most shooters fall on one end of the spectrum. The turtles so focused on accuracy, that speed is a challenge. On the other end, the speed guys are happy to shoot fast without worrying about accuracy.

    The concept of predictive shooting is a learning tool for accuracy focused shooters. They have the ability to shoot fast, just not the will or confidence. By leading with trigger in drills, their eyes have to get busy to keep up.

    The other day, I tried this with someone well known to PF, and definitely in the accuracy camp. We were able to speed up his transitions so much it was shocking. The speed oriented shooters have likely been doing this all along without realizing it. That is why they don't teach it -- they don't realize it is even a thing.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter David S.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    DFW
    I'm the turtle GJM mentioned above. I color inside the lines and a stable, centered dot is my happy place.

    I needed to be told to shoot the streak, instead of waiting for a stable, centered dot. The thought never even crossed my mind, and I had to "get permission" to do so. I still have to force myself into that mode, particularly in competition. In the same way, the Predictive Shooting concept gives me the "permission" to pull the trigger even sooner.

    I suspect these concepts are intuitive and obvious to other shooters (like JCN?), but they certainly aren't for me. I, for one, find the breakdown useful at this stage in my development, even if it gets blended into The Whole in the future.
    David S.

  10. #30
    Focus JCN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    in a really good place
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    I'm the turtle GJM mentioned above. I color inside the lines and a stable, centered dot is my happy place.

    Please, please, please consider doing this drill. The 3 and 7 yard strings are designed for someone like you (in a good way). @ssb was in the place you were and it helped him break out.


    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....54#post1427754

    Read through the thread and consider trying this kind of training. I guarantee you'll get a ton out of it. By forcing a time cutoff, you'll learn to train the vision at speed and learn how little you need to see with good mechanics. Watch some of the videos in the thread.

    Especially this one I made for SSB


User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •