Unfortunately, I think the only place they have that is the same place where they sell the Walther P99 M2 OR.Originally Posted by BillSWPA
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1442074
Unfortunately, I think the only place they have that is the same place where they sell the Walther P99 M2 OR.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1442074
The Acro P2 is beginning to roll out to specialized units and instructional staff in a few federal agencies. At some point the switch will get flipped and new recruits in those agencies will go through their respective academy training with the mounted optic. Manufacture in China is a deal breaker for those kinds of agencies.
The Acro makes sense for that kind of approach. Central armorers can affix mounting plates to MOS guns that have already been purchased, and can affix the optic. Neither mount is touched by the user. All they do is replace a battery. The battery life is sufficiently long that even that task isn't something they have to do very often, maybe once or twice a year depending on use.
Of course, in some of these agencies the people who tote guns often only shoot them at qualification time and in some there's little or no training happening outside the academy setting. So will they keep their batteries changed? I imagine there will be some sort of policy on that eventually.
Enclosed emitter, robust and simple mounting...that's the way institutional users are going to be moving.
We're out of alpha and beta testing and into version 1.0 of dots on pistols.
3/15/2016
I am just beginning to use pistol mounted optics, and have significantly less experience than most or all of you at this point. However, I find myself strongly preferring an optic that many of you have moved away from: a Trijicon RM07.
I have an RM07 and a Swampfox Liberty. I really like the 6.5 MOA, auto-adjust dot of the RM07. I can see the dot in anything from bright sunlight to low light. The only difficulty is looking from a darkened area into a well-lit area, in which case my backup irons become very easy to see.
The RM07 is also very well structured for IWB carry. The lens ends up right above my belt, where any additional printing is minimized or eliminated.
I tried carrying the RM07 during some very cold days last month, with wind chills of between -30F and -40F. When I came indoors, my glasses were badly fogged, bot the optic, which had been under my coat and sweater, was clear and usable.
The need to remove the optic for battery changes is not something I view as a deal-breaker as long as I can replace the battery preventatively long before it does, something that should be done regardless. If the stated battery life is reasonably accurate, then once every year or two should be fine. If the battery were to die unexpectedly while traveling, I can see that being a more difficult issue to address.
The Liberty has shown me that I do not like 3 MOA dots with no auto adjust. It works fine as long as I have time to adjust it. However, I need the absolute maximum brightness in bright sunlight. In low light, this setting is too bright to effectively use the dot, and makes the glass so difficult to see through that it would preclude using irons.
So, any optic with a small dot size and no auto adjust will not be high on my current list. Unfortunately that appears to rule out many choices.
It’s not a deal breaker for you, as an individual, or even a small enough local PD that has their own range. But for large state or federal institutions it is ABSOLUTELY a deal breaker.
At least one large federal agency is moving to the P-2 after attempts to have RMR Batteries changed in the field turned into fed exing guns to a national armory for battery changes. And then because it’s a duty gun after a battery change, you need to get to a range ASAP and verify zero has not shifted. In my experience most bottom load battery optics are pretty close if you were using proper torque values, but never exactly zeroed after battery changes.
Auto adjust in general and with RMRs in particular seems to work best with bigger dots.
That makes perfect sense.
How are the P-2's being set so that they are visible in most light conditions? Pick 1 setting and hope for the best? Adjust throughout the day? Genuinely curious since I do see the advantages of not having to remove for battery changes as well as closed emitter.
I’ll be honest, I hate auto adjust, and I would never use an auto adjust optic, didn’t allow me to shut it off or override it.
My agency is currently using Sigg optics with the RMR as a personally owned option. In general, we turn the optic up to max and back it off one or two clicks.
Generally running, the optic bright helps prevent issues with mistaking emitter reflections (aka ghost dots) for the actual dot. In low light, one generally needs illumination to identify targets, and it helps prevent the dock from being washed out when you activate your flashlight or WML.
In my experience, shooting a bright dot in low light without additional lighting is similar to doing occluded shooting in daylight. In other words, it’s still very workable. I don’t fiddle around with that brightness and I don’t recommend it to my people.
I’ll try to condense my thoughts and teaching points into a short version. The first part of that is to agree completely and enthusiastically with @HCM.
When we’re running our classes we don’t have a low light portion because of time constrictions, scheduling, etc. I do a discussion and have the students verify their daylight settings, then give “homework” to find low light settings, and it’s much like HCM said. I’m sure I’ve stolen these phrases but I forget from whom, but you can’t dim daylight, and brighter is better. I go with a single setting that works in all environments but may not be ideal. It gives me confidence that I know what to expect.
The discussion I referenced earlier relies heavily on what I experienced taking the Orange County (CA) Sheriff’s Dept. pistol optic course. They have an indoor range and a limited amount of time for training. They wanted more - got what they got - and are making the best use of it they can. It’s excellent... really excellent training. The low light block is maybe 20 minutes, but it’s super effective at showing what works with a dot in changing lighting conditions. I encourage anyone in LE who is interested to reach out to them and if you can get into that class.
For my current carry guns with Holosun EPS Carry optics, that means all the way bright, then two steps down.
This is determined by running the optic in bright sunlight against white targets, then using a weapon light against a white target or T-shirt at a fairly close distance (I use 6-9 feet but some serious dudes at my department use about three feet so I can’t say it’s wrong) with a weapon-light if you use one. If not, then it’s all about ambient conditions.
I sometimes do the WML thing off duty and sometimes don’t. Today was a lot of driving and it was a no-WML day, but because we can’t dim daylight it was up all the way then down two. Tomorrow I’ll have a WML on my pistol. That will get all the way up and down two. If I didn’t have a WML and it was going to be cloudy all day or I was going out at night then it’s down three.
But isn't this opinion only based on current technology?
If a manufacturer ever gets it to function properly under all lighting conditions wouldn't you find that preferable?
I’d still want an over ride option.
Same with flashlights.
No pre programmed sensor can be 100%.
Maybe Svetlana the Swedish AI bot in the ACRO P15 will get there but it won’t be in my lifetime.
Last edited by HCM; 01-22-2023 at 01:37 AM.
Fair enough... And I would agree with still wanting a manual override just for peace of mind.
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