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Thread: Pistol Optics in 2023

  1. #1
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Pistol Optics in 2023

    I’m stealing the idea of this from the LPVO thread in the carbine/rifle forum here.

    This is my opinion, but I’m setting up the proverbial folding table and chair and I’m sitting here with a virtual cup of coffee asking if you’ll “change my mind”.

    I asked Trijicon if they were planning to release an RMR that didn’t require removal to change the battery... in January 2020. The “we’re thinking about it” answer I got this week was the same answer I got back then. I have owned four RMRs. I’m down to one that’s about to be removed to the spare container. I will never buy another that requires removal for a battery change. Trijicon... The RMR was the thing that got pistol optics real-world cred. It will die if you don’t get your shit together.

    The SRO is still rad. I’ve seen some copies of the SRO and I’m still an SRO fan. It’s awesome for what it does and I’m happy with both of mine. I have seen very minimal issues with SROs with other shooters and most of those issues were battery caps not tightened enough (though they do need to be “really” tight).

    Leupold... The DPP is a decent optic but is not ideal in several ways. Get better.

    Aimpoint... The ACRO P-2 is a great optic and if I could only have one gun and one optic the P-2 would be on that gun. Don’t rest on your laurels. This is where I’m a loyalist and a bit of a fanboy. I did a lot of research, testing, and I’m confident to say that Aimpoint is one of those companies that when you invest in quality, you get performance that when tested in a bunch of different areas, is better than the rest. My favorite rifle has an H2 and Aimpoint magnifier and my second favorite has a Comp M4. With all that said... There is more to be done with pistol optics. I think that Aimpoint has the right people in places to influence design and if they let those people do that we’ll see great stuff from them.

    Bushnell... I’m kinda impressed so far with the RXS-250 but need to shoot it more. It needs some pretty proprietary screws, but they’ve been pretty generous with sending spares out.

    EOTech... It’s very...very similar to the Bushnell. I have little experience but at least one person I very much respect has been running one and is happy. I think both the Bushnell and EOTech are probably made in the same factory and that means that my opinion of both so far is decent.

    Steiner... The MPS has had mixed reviews here and a partner has experienced a broken optic that I confirmed. Steiner replaced it immediately and I think this optic has potential to solve some some traditional optic problems (glare being one). The jury is still out and as with other manufacturers there is still improvement, but it’s a great addition to the optic world and will influence development going forward.

    Sig... The Romeo 1Pro is actually a pretty decent optic. I’ve taught a lot of classes with students running them and they seem to work really well. I’ve had a couple that got lazy about the shake awake, but with a quick beating they started running again and didn’t repeat the problem. They aren’ t my favorite but they make a decent pistol optic. THe Romeo 2 is something I’ve only played with for a few minutes without shooting. They want a lot of money for it and it’s not really an enclosed emitter so without a lot of time behind it I’m deferring to a truly enclosed for my preference...

    Except the following, the manufacturers I haven’t mentioned I either have no experience with (that I remember currently) or I simply don’t like or care about because they are copies of better optics at a lower price point. I will pay for the better...

    Then there’s Holosun.

    People say they are stealing intellectual designs. So has everyone since Grubb in 1900. It’s not new.

    They have been driving improvements over the past three years to include battery replacement without removing the optic on an RMR footprint, multiple reticles, solar power, multiple body metal compositions, effective compact optics, compact enclosed emitters, solar charging sights with no battery exchange/charging necessary, and based on what I saw this week, their thermal and NV rifle optics are just stupid awesome at an attainable (if not cheap) price.

    Like a bunch of other products, the company is based in the US, and they happen to be in the area where I work. Their products are made in China like a lot of other products to include most of the phones we are using to look at this thread. If that’s a no-go for you I get it, and if you’re dedicated and consistent to a US or US-friendly only product then look somewhere else and be confident. If you are crap talking because it’s made in China as if that’s supposed to convince me to buy an RMR instead of a 507C I’m excited to debate.

    Yes, Trijicon sued them a bit ago. When I look at the real reason I see a desperate company trying to stay relevant in the face of improved performance and better ingenuity. Let’s face it. Holosun isn’t stealing technology. That boat sailed a century ago. They’re just making things better. Other companies need to wake up and get in the race.

    I have more Holosuns than any other optic. I’ve dropped my personal Holosun optic in testing from 3, 4, and twice from 5 feet (not Aaron Cowan but enough for me) to see how it performed. I’m still using it.

  2. #2
    I have a G26 slide out being milled with an RMR footprint right now. My original intent was to stick a 6.5 MOA RMR on it. I have two 3.25 RMR's that I've been happy with. Checking zero once a year after a battery swap, for me, isn't a big deal. I believe they are likely the most robust mini-reflex on the market, physical abuse wise, besides maybe the Aimpoint. I like buying American made stuff, when it comes to weapons/defense use. I'd prefer not to send my dollars to the PLA (even if indirectly).

    All that said, I've been eyeballing the Holosun offerings, and I do have to admit they have some neat and useful features, and have certainly pushed innovation far better than Trijicon has. Which is almost shameful. Someone here said Trijicon might be coming out with a top-loading RMR at SHOT... So I was waiting, just to see if that was actually true. I'd love to see a Trijicon sight with a side or top loading battery, with an enclosed emitter (that isn't a mailbox), that fits the legacy RMR footprint (I know, it sucks). High hopes. Just not seeing it happening.

    I might still end up with an RM07... But I have started wondering if I'm being too much of a curmudgeon and stick in the mud about Holosun on a pistol.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    I’ve had/have a lot of different MRDS - Trijicon, Holosun, Steiner, Swampfox, Sig and Shield. All my carry & work guns are running Holosun. The Trijicons (RMR/SRO) are both broke and I’ve just been lazy about sending them in to get fixed. I’ll never buy another RMR or other bottom loading battery optic.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
    www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I’ve had/have a lot of different MRDS - Trijicon, Holosun, Steiner, Swampfox, Sig and Shield. All my carry & work guns are running Holosun. The Trijicons (RMR/SRO) are both broke and I’ve just been lazy about sending them in to get fixed. I’ll never buy another RMR or other bottom loading battery optic.
    I travel a fair amount and have a small Daka pouch in my day pack with 1225, 1632, 1620 and 2032 batteries. Not infrequently I have had to change batteries away from home. How does that work if you have an RMR?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #5
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    I tested the Bushnell after going to a Dave Spaulding class and hearing his recommendation. It worked fine but I ended up taking it off because I was always inadvertently changing the brightness due to the button location and ease/pronouncement.

    I also agree about the RMR. I got my first one mounted on a Glock 19 in I think early 2010. It served me well through the years and I have bought more, but they are being left behind in the innovation department and I won't be buying anymore.

    Love my SRO except for its ghost dot in the sun thing. Maybe I should just keep it occluded.

    I have I lot of different Holosun models and they have all worked well for me. I don't care for the 2MOA dots, so new ones I buy get the 6.

    Somewhat early on in this journey I tried Vortex. After sending back the same optic a couple of times and using their vaunted warranty I didn't bother anymore.

    The Sig Romeo 1 Pro has worked well for me. It is a nice optic. I don't have it on a gun that sees a lot of use though. Many of the people in my area run the on their match guns and like them. I think early on they had a reliability problem but that seems better now. Romeo Zero that came on my 365 XL was a complete piece of trash.

    Havent tried any of the big enclosed optics because they are so damn ugly, but I am liking my EPS Carry so far.

    I have 2 DPP's. One was my first dedicated match optic. Other than the shake awake burning out early on it functioned well through about 30,000 rounds. I bought a second for my POS Legion Carry and though I like some things about it a lot, I had forgotten how much I hate the brightness controls.
    Last edited by MVS; 01-21-2023 at 09:48 AM.

  6. #6
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    Louisiana
    I think that the big ring on the ACSS Holosun combined with enclosed emitter and no dismount-enclosed emitter is a noticable and real step in making pistol optics more practical, over and above the step forward that RMR offered.

    I still prefer a dot to the chevron, though.

    I'm beginning to trust shake awake more than in the past.
    Per the PF Code of Conduct, I have a commercial interest in the StreakTM product as sold by Ammo, Inc.

  7. #7
    I suspect an SRO (or possibly CHPWS Comp, if they check out) and EPS are going to be my 2023 purchases to replace my 507c's.
    David S.

  8. #8
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I’m stealing the idea of this from the LPVO thread in the carbine/rifle forum here.

    This is my opinion, but I’m setting up the proverbial folding table and chair and I’m sitting here with a virtual cup of coffee asking if you’ll “change my mind”.

    I asked Trijicon if they were planning to release an RMR that didn’t require removal to change the battery... in January 2020. The “we’re thinking about it” answer I got this week was the same answer I got back then. I have owned four RMRs. I’m down to one that’s about to be removed to the spare container. I will never buy another that requires removal for a battery change. Trijicon... The RMR was the thing that got pistol optics real-world cred. It will die if you don’t get your shit together.

    The SRO is still rad. I’ve seen some copies of the SRO and I’m still an SRO fan. It’s awesome for what it does and I’m happy with both of mine. I have seen very minimal issues with SROs with other shooters and most of those issues were battery caps not tightened enough (though they do need to be “really” tight).

    Leupold... The DPP is a decent optic but is not ideal in several ways. Get better.

    Aimpoint... The ACRO P-2 is a great optic and if I could only have one gun and one optic the P-2 would be on that gun. Don’t rest on your laurels. This is where I’m a loyalist and a bit of a fanboy. I did a lot of research, testing, and I’m confident to say that Aimpoint is one of those companies that when you invest in quality, you get performance that when tested in a bunch of different areas, is better than the rest. My favorite rifle has an H2 and Aimpoint magnifier and my second favorite has a Comp M4. With all that said... There is more to be done with pistol optics. I think that Aimpoint has the right people in places to influence design and if they let those people do that we’ll see great stuff from them.

    Bushnell... I’m kinda impressed so far with the RXS-250 but need to shoot it more. It needs some pretty proprietary screws, but they’ve been pretty generous with sending spares out.

    EOTech... It’s very...very similar to the Bushnell. I have little experience but at least one person I very much respect has been running one and is happy. I think both the Bushnell and EOTech are probably made in the same factory and that means that my opinion of both so far is decent.

    Steiner... The MPS has had mixed reviews here and a partner has experienced a broken optic that I confirmed. Steiner replaced it immediately and I think this optic has potential to solve some some traditional optic problems (glare being one). The jury is still out and as with other manufacturers there is still improvement, but it’s a great addition to the optic world and will influence development going forward.

    Sig... The Romeo 1Pro is actually a pretty decent optic. I’ve taught a lot of classes with students running them and they seem to work really well. I’ve had a couple that got lazy about the shake awake, but with a quick beating they started running again and didn’t repeat the problem. They aren’ t my favorite but they make a decent pistol optic. THe Romeo 2 is something I’ve only played with for a few minutes without shooting. They want a lot of money for it and it’s not really an enclosed emitter so without a lot of time behind it I’m deferring to a truly enclosed for my preference...

    Except the following, the manufacturers I haven’t mentioned I either have no experience with (that I remember currently) or I simply don’t like or care about because they are copies of better optics at a lower price point. I will pay for the better...

    Then there’s Holosun.

    People say they are stealing intellectual designs. So has everyone since Grubb in 1900. It’s not new.

    They have been driving improvements over the past three years to include battery replacement without removing the optic on an RMR footprint, multiple reticles, solar power, multiple body metal compositions, effective compact optics, compact enclosed emitters, solar charging sights with no battery exchange/charging necessary, and based on what I saw this week, their thermal and NV rifle optics are just stupid awesome at an attainable (if not cheap) price.

    Like a bunch of other products, the company is based in the US, and they happen to be in the area where I work. Their products are made in China like a lot of other products to include most of the phones we are using to look at this thread. If that’s a no-go for you I get it, and if you’re dedicated and consistent to a US or US-friendly only product then look somewhere else and be confident. If you are crap talking because it’s made in China as if that’s supposed to convince me to buy an RMR instead of a 507C I’m excited to debate.

    Yes, Trijicon sued them a bit ago. When I look at the real reason I see a desperate company trying to stay relevant in the face of improved performance and better ingenuity. Let’s face it. Holosun isn’t stealing technology. That boat sailed a century ago. They’re just making things better. Other companies need to wake up and get in the race.

    I have more Holosuns than any other optic. I’ve dropped my personal Holosun optic in testing from 3, 4, and twice from 5 feet (not Aaron Cowan but enough for me) to see how it performed. I’m still using it.
    Thanks again for doing this. Obviously the sheer volume of what you see makes your observance's and opinion more worthwhile than someone like me who has been doing this a fairly long time but with low numbers.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter
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    I've had several RMR's, 2 Holosuns, 2 DPP's and 3 Sig Romeo 1 Pros. One was sold with the slide it was mounted on, no issues with it. The 2 I have now on a M17 and M18 have not had an issue. Although I don't have many rounds through them yet. However as others have noted RMR's have reliability issues, bottom load battery etc. I'm not a huge fan of the tiny screw/battery tray setup on the Holosuns. DPP brightness controls are a PITA. So for me I prefer the Romeo 1 Pro. Large window without being a mailbox on top of the gun, no mounting and remounting to change battery's, rugged supplied screws, comes with a shield now, easy access brightness controls. So far I'm impressed with them and the features they offer. YMMV.
    Be Aware-Stay Safe. Gunfighting Is A Thinking Man's Game. So We Might Want To Bring Thinking Back Into It.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Dayton, Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I travel a fair amount and have a small Daka pouch in my day pack with 1225, 1632, 1620 and 2032 batteries. Not infrequently I have had to change batteries away from home. How does that work if you have an RMR?
    Exactly. Had to do that at work.

    Trijicon (and Surefire, if you ask me) has gotten fat off .gov contracts. Which has led them to be lazy when it comes to updates and innovation. I’m not an engineer, but I find it hard to believe they could not combine the SRO and RMR somehow and come out with a Type 3 RMR.

    They used to be the top dog around. Not anymore.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
    www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com

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