Gun performance comparisons

[Clusterfrack]

I’ve been working on USPSA classifier CM03-14 Baseball Standards. The course of fire from surrender start is:
6 WHO 15yds
6 Freestyle 25yds
3 reload 3 25yds
6 SHO 15yds
With a 4.5s par time for each string.
High hit factor (100%) is 93.9pts.

Last week I shot 3 consecutive Hundos with my Shadow2 with a 509t2 ACSS. Today I wanted to compare guns and optics so I shot that gun, a S2 with a SRO 5moa, and a P-07 with a EPS 2moa. I have a minor left thumb sprain from rolling last night, so today was a bit of a challenge. I didn’t observe any significant difference between the two Shadow2’s, but slightly prefer the larger window of the SRO. What was surprising was how similar my scores were with all the guns. I definitely had to work harder on WHO wrist lock with the P-07.

S2 SRO: 95%
S2 509t2 ACSS: 94.5%
P-07 EPS: 91%

[JCN]

S2 SRO: 95%
S2 509t2 ACSS: 94.5%
P-07 EPS: 91%

Nice job and good data.
I would make the counter point that the P07 wasn’t really similar and that 4% decrement is about what you would expect.

No semi-auto is going to give more than a 20% performance drop from peak even without usable sights and with a terrible trigger given the same shooter.

So it’s not a 4% drop out of 100% if that makes sense.

It’s a 4% drop out of an absolute 20% possible functional drop….


Whether that would make a difference in a gunfight, probably not. But it’s a real performance decrement that we accept in the name of comfort and concealment.

[Clusterfrack]

Moved these posts from What did you shoot today? to a new thread dedicated to direct comparisons of performance using different guns.

[Clusterfrack]

Nice job and good data.
I would make the counter point that the P07 wasn’t really similar and that 4% decrement is about what you would expect.

No semi-auto is going to give more than a 20% performance drop from peak even without usable sights and with a terrible trigger given the same shooter.

So it’s not a 4% drop out of 100% if that makes sense.

It’s a 4% drop out of an absolute 20% possible functional drop….


Whether that would make a difference in a gunfight, probably not. But it’s a real performance decrement that we accept in the name of comfort and concealment.

Good point. I'll add that the difference is going to depend on the test. Baseball Standards is a good one because there's no penalty (other than less points) if you can't get all of the shots off under the 4.5s par.

Similar indexes, similar general feel, similar triggers all help narrow the gap for me. If I had more time, I'd run a few of these with a G19, and maybe a P380.

[JCN]

@Clusterfrack I’ll just spell out definition of terms early on so that people don’t talk past each other (not you and me, others that might wander in).

“Significant” splits into:

“Statistically significant”

and

“Functionally significant”

The more reproducible someone’s mechanics, the more easily they’re able to tease out statistically significant differences that others may not notice.

Whether that’s functionally significant, hard to say.

So when vetting carry guns, I test against a full points standard like 100 point Bakersfield or 50/50 FBI and make the assumption that anything performance wise above that standard is not functionally significant while it might be statistically performance different.

Hence discussions of “carry rotation.”

If someone can exceed a reasonable functional standard, I don’t care if their gun matches their shoes.

If they can’t, I don’t care if it’s their only gun.

The shooter matters more than the gun most of the time, IMO.

[GJM]

I believe my wife cracked the code on this a week or two ago. Often times, on specific drills I can shoot a Glock 19 as well, and sometimes better than my Open gun. However, in matches the same doesn't hold. She observed that the more capable gun provides better performance when shooting on the move, in and out, with an imperfect stance or grip, especially on partial targets.

Shoot a match or two with your P07 and let us know. The good news is defensive use of a handgun is quite a but different than 32 round field courses, and those differences that are amplified by competition, are probably just noise in the food court.

[cheby]

This is a timely thread for me. Lately I was thinking a lot about pro-shooters who are able to shoot different division each week on basically the same level. They are switching between Open, Production, Limited, or whatever and performing well. Obviously their fundamentals are very well developed. I personally remember how difficult it was for me to switch to Limited after shooting Production. Right now I am screwing around with Single Stack Major for a short while and it is noticeably more difficult to shoot on the same level. Recoil control with the skinny gun (Shooting Major) is probably the most difficult between all of them.


So it got me thinking that switching between radically different guns helps me to analyze and redefine my fundamentals. I was practicing last weekend with three different guns ( Smart, I know). CO with the a SIG, SS 1911, and Limited 2011. I shot Baseball Standards cold with all three starting with SS. Shot them almost identical - 90-95%. Then I realized that this particular drill maybe not the best way to evaluate and compare different platforms. This type of the shooting is my strong skill because it takes only REACTIVE type shooting and relatively slow. I am pretty sure I can shoot the BB Standards with my 365 just fine (Without the reload part LOL) For me at least, it is actually relatively easy to shoot well compared to, lets say, Disaster Factor or Criss Cross (While trying to get under 6 sec) or any other classifier/drill where you have to shoot partial targets at 10-15 yrds with .2s splits to make it relevant. And this is where the gun makes a difference, I think. And this is why those pro guys are wining - they can do it.

I was also shooting doulbles with my stock M18, SIG 229, and my CO Legion at 7 yards. The difference was radical.

On a positive side, after the SS Major, shooting Limited with 2011 or minor with SIG was like shooting 22LR.

I do not think messing around with different guns are productive for a new shooter though. Being a one-trick pony is probably a better approach for a while.

[cheby]

I believe my wife cracked the code on this a week or two ago. Often times, on specific drills I can shoot a Glock 19 as well, and sometimes better than my Open gun. However, in matches the same doesn't hold. She observed that the more capable gun provides better performance when shooting on the move, in and out, with an imperfect stance or grip, especially on partial targets.

Shoot a match or two with your P07 and let us know. The good news is defensive use of a handgun is quite a but different than 32 round field courses, and those differences that are amplified by competition, are probably just noise in the food court.

2018 USPSA Nationals (Actually all of them) had a lot of standards and speed shoots that lately became the USPSA classifiers. Most of them were the stand and shoot type. No movements. All those stages were won by the same guys who placed at the top at the match. I believe movements and shit while important are less then 10% of our scores. Shooting fundamentals (Recoil control and trigger control at speed) - 80%

[GJM]

2018 USPSA Nationals (Actually all of them) had a lot standards and speed shoots that lately became the USPSA classifiers. Most of them were the stand and shoot type. No movements. All those stages were won by the same guys who placed at the top at the match. I believe movements and shit while important are less then 10% of our scores. Shooting fundamentals (Recoil control and trigger control at speed) - 80%

I think you are answering a different question. Shouldn't the relevant question be, how would the stand and shoot performance vary between the same top shooters using their match gun, versus a less capable carry version and how would the delta compare to field courses?

[cheby]

I think you are answering a different question. Shouldn't the relevant question be, how would the stand and shoot performance vary between the same top shooters using their match gun, versus a less capable carry version and how would the delta compare to field courses?

I think it depends on the drill type. Some takes more gun handling (So carry guns would be in disadvantage), some reactive shooting (PF and dot would make more difference), some require more predictive shooting where recoil control is more important (The Down the Middle classifier for example). I guess my point is it takes multiple and various drills to evaluate diffident platforms.

Even from a timmy perspective, shooting something like the Mozambique drill (Or FAST) would be different with an open holster.