M&P 5.7

[spyderco monkey]

I know this is veering off the topic but I sometimes wonder if part of the reason someone like S&W will make a gun is cos there's a surplus of ammo but at 75c a round to train, that can't be the case.

Definitely not surplus ammo. Theres both not much out there to surplus, and it's all AP, so would not be sold to the civilian market.

5.7 was stable in price for a long time (2008~2018) at $0.36 per shot for SS197 'blue tip' VMAX rounds. Then 2019 Ruger's 5.7 pistol is released, greatly increasing the number of shooters for 5.7, and then Covid + Summer of Love hits, then more 5.7 pistols come out, and now price is totally nuts for 5.7.

Fiocchi is now expanding 5.7 production, planning to 3x availability in the US. Also they've just introduced a neat 62gr Subsonic load.

And probably the most exciting is PSA's new ammo company is planning to release their own 5.7 ammo and loads - rumored to be hotter then the legacy rounds.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/...583807/?page=7

[Nephrology]

I’m going from memory here, but the 5.7, from a pistol, has similar muzzle velocity as a .22 mag from a rifle. So the 5.7/.22 mag comparison isn’t really apples to apples. The 5.7 is a much more powerful cartridge. Plus it’s more reliable and feeds much better.

I mostly mean from the perspective of plinking, in which case the price difference for me would outweigh any ballistic advantage. Would hurt my wallet dumping the 20 round magazine of a FiveseveN.

A bolt action rifle in 5.7 might be kind of fun, but again, at 75 CPR for basic ball ammo and nothing really in the way of commercial match loads, probably would be happier with a .223.

[hiro]

The S&W would have been in the works for a couple of years, perhaps after they saw the success of the Ruger and thought they'd have some of that pie. Then COVID and the it's shit storm and here they are, tooled up and making a new pistol that most won't touch cos the ammo is too expensive.

[TGS]

Given what's reported in the Doc's ammo forum I posted up thread, I get that going thru the armour is better than being stopped by it but is it really deemed a good solution for the problem or is it what we have at the moment and it'll have to do?

With the caveat that everything is a compromise...

I would say it's still viable in the context for which it was purposed. Usually these conversations are centered around the context of achieving immediate incapacitation, which isn't always totally relevant in military contexts. An escaping crew isn't on an HVT kill mission or pushing the CQB fight in clearing a city block. They're not a police officer serving a warrant in a drug house.

While it's certainly be preferable, they don't need to immediately incapacitate what they're shooting at. The immediacy isn't the same as someone performing those other missions.

In addition a hit is better than no hit, and these weapons have an advantage over 9mm in that they're lower recoil and offer greater capacity for the same weight...meaning a better chance of achieving hits, and in their SMG formats in particular a better chance of achieving effective suppression.

I also remember, please correct me if I'm wrong, that the PDWs the rounds were designed for were to be issued to vehicle crews and support troops. If that's still the case, are there enough PDWs in inventory or the capacity to make more?

I'm not sure what you mean, really. In inventory for who? AFAIK, due to the collapse of the USSR, only Germany and Belgium adopted them in the role for which they were designed as the need disappeared. That need may reappear as we refocus back on conventional warfare, where the 9mm faces a serious lack of usefulness on armored opponents regardless of however efficous it may be on shooting unarmored opponents. Outside the niche use by well trained users performing particular missions (SOF) or arming conscripted old men to guard rear doors at supply caches in civilian areas, the 9mm pistol is without doubt the most useless piece of gear on the modern near-peer conventional battlefield, and is akin to carrying a saber.

If you have the money, they'll make them and sell them to you. Sure, there's plenty of manufacturing capacity for them, if that's what you're asking.

There are other countries which have developed their own small caliber high velocity PDWs, such as India and China, but they largely lack the funding to implement the idea. Let's also keep in mind that Russia saw the same need for PDWs, but went about it by developing specific 9mm loads which are very expensive, very limited in range, very hard on their guns, and very high recoil. They also developed a 9x21 to replace the 9x19 in army service as it's got better range that the 9x19 offerings, though you run into the problems of recoil and cost.

[hiro]

I'm not sure what you mean, really. In inventory for who? AFAIK, due to the collapse of the USSR, only Germany and Belgium adopted them in the role for which they were designed as the need disappeared. That need may reappear as we refocus back on conventional warfare, where the 9mm faces a serious lack of usefulness on armored opponents regardless of however efficous it may be on shooting unarmored opponents. Outside the niche use by well trained users performing particular missions (SOF) or arming conscripted old men to guard rear doors as supply caches in civilian areas, the 9mm pistol is without doubt the most useless piece of gear on the modern near-peer conventional battlefield, and is akin to carrying a saber.

If you have the money, they'll make them and sell them to you. Sure, there's plenty of manufacturing capacity for them, if that's what you're asking.

I wasn't sure who, if anyone had issued the MP7/P90, thanks for the info.

With the increase in tension now that Russia is actively waging war, will they look again at the need or as I think, its way down the list of priorities? Did the US come close to buying one of the PDWs?

(Yeah, I am way OT but this is an interest for me that I won't bore you all with)

[TGS]

I wasn't sure who, if anyone had issued the MP7/P90, thanks for the info.

With the increase in tension now that Russia is actively waging war, will they look again at the need or as I think, its way down the list of priorities? Did the US come close to buying one of the PDWs?

(Yeah, I am way OT but this is an interest for me that I won't bore you all with)

Lots of countries and organizations bought them due to great marketing by FN and HK who needed to recoup R&D costs, which is when everyone discovered that they suck at immediate incapacitation and dropped them.

I don't think the US ever looked at it seriously. I don't know if any country will necessarily "prioritize" it, as they have higher priorities such as C4ISR, jets, smart munitions, indirect fire, etc. To put it into perspective in the grame scheme of things, s.all arms are dramatically unimportant...you could probably arm the Ukrainians with the M1 Garand right now and it wouldn't make a big difference on the outcome of the war.

But, if I were a gun maker, I'd certainly want to have something in the books to sell if someone came knocking...

[the Schwartz]

I’ve always thought that one of these 5.7 pistols would be an ideal survival pistol for pilots. Low recoil for guys who don’t shoot a lot, light, high capacity and suitable for small game as well as self defense.

That was the idea with pistols such as the High Standard HDM/S in .22LR being issued to pilots, like Francis Gary Powers, during the Cold War. I'd imagine that the 5.7x28 cartridge would be eminently more suitable in that role than the former in such an environment.

[spyderco monkey]

That was the idea with pistols such as the High Standard HDM/S in .22LR being issued to pilots, like Francis Gary Powers, during the Cold War. I'd imagine that the 5.7x28 cartridge would be eminently more suitable in that role than the former in such an environment.

Interestingly, the Subsonic SS193 load still defeats 2x IIIA panels stacked on top of one another. Definitely better then .22lr for a behind enemy lines SERE pistol.

https://youtu.be/LYkJ5Yu49FY?t=332

[zaitcev]

Particularly given that my cursory search suggests that practice ammo retails at 75 cents per round.\

The .75/rd price is cheap for civilians. I had to buy .380 at 1.32/rd at the peak of pandemic, just to practice a little.

[SecondsCount]

The .75/rd price is cheap for civilians. I had to buy .380 at 1.32/rd at the peak of pandemic, just to practice a little.

Call me when 5.7 is under 26cpr

Also, I reload my ammo, and 5.7 is a PITA to reload compared to 9mm or 380. If I owned a 380, I would be reloading my own ammo for it. It's always been a red headed step child, and price fluctuates badly when the market gets tight. Based on the components I have on the shelf and purchasing some bullets, I could do it for 10 cpr. The bullets alone for 5.7 will cost 20 cpr.