M&P 5.7

[TGS]

The ACH/MICH are being replaced with the IHPS. Issue of the IHPS began in 2018. The IHPS was designed around integrated communications / hearing protection so it offers a slightly greater area of protection than the prior helmets.

My understanding is that materials are stronger for the same weight, but we haven't made them of significantly greater protection (in terms of being rifle rated)...focusing instead on getting the same protection for less weight. Rifle rated SLAAP panels are rare and not widely issued.

Moreover, that's our helmets. Russian and Chinese helmets are weaker.

About rifle plates: rifle rated armor existed among Soviet forces when the 5.7 was developed, but it wasn't widely issued. The most common Russian body armor in use prior to the Ratnik program only even had 1 plate. Even where a country may have outer vests that fits a front and rear plate, that doesn't mean they actually have plates....and many times for CTSO countries, those plates are legacy products that are in unserviceable condition, not a living program involving replacement of damaged plates. From what I've gathered, most CTSO countries are using kevlar vests with no plates.

And, lastly, even on the Russian side: just because you updated your body armor to be a vest with front and rear plates doesn't mean all your troops actually have that. Conventional war logistics + mass conscription doesn't lend itself well for your troops all having the current body armor system.

So, there's still efficacy for the 5.7 and 4.6 in the roles for which they were designed.

[the Schwartz]

The newer generations of helmets (ACH/MICH) aren't much better than PASGT. They're listed as being Level IIIA+, while PASGT was considered Level IIIA. In addition, newer helmets have reduced coverage in favor of mobility and hearing protection. I wonder how they'd fare in Ukraine with WW1 style artillery barrages, considering the reduced area of protection against fragments.

Completely agree. The move to the ACH/MICH which substituted Twaron for K129 yet is impregnated with (20% less by mass) the same phenolic resin used in the PASGT, did not result in a significant improvement in protection level over the PASGT. This occurred mainly because wall thickness was decreased due to the superior performance of the latter fiber which allowed for an overall system mass reduction. Had wall thickness been maintained at 9mm instead of being reduced to 7.8mm, the protective ability would have also increased at the expense of increased mass. Trade-offs and compromises.

[MountainRaven]

Are we talking about using 5.7 and 4.6 to defeat armor used by the same near-peer foes the new 6.8x51mm cartridge is intended to defeat? The cartridge we're adopting because we can't make 5.56mm do the same job? That armor?

[spyderco monkey]

Are we talking about using 5.7 and 4.6 to defeat armor used by the same near-peer foes the new 6.8x51mm cartridge is intended to defeat? The cartridge we're adopting because we can't make 5.56mm do the same job? That armor?

Pretty much nothing short of tungsten 7.62+ is viable against modern hard armor.

However 4.6 / 5.7 / 9mm steel core is still useful against ballistic helmets, as well as defeating the IIIA protected areas that extend beyond the armored plate, such as the shoulders/neck area, as the side armor which seems to be IIIA for Ratnik not hard plates.

[MandoWookie]

Pretty much nothing short of tungsten 7.62+ is viable against modern hard armor.

However 4.6 / 5.7 / 9mm steel core is still useful against ballistic helmets, as well as defeating the IIIA protected areas that extend beyond the armored plate, such as the shoulders/neck area, as the side armor which seems to be IIIA for Ratnik not hard plates.

And it's also been suggested by observers and reports from Ukraine that many Russian units are not even issued the plates with the carriers.
How accurate that is, is up for debate, or how it would apply to a larger conflict and not a regional one is also, but I've also seen reports that many US units were still issuing PASGT armor well after it had been officially replaced.
That's also the majority of what had been handed out to local forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will keep showing up a lot down the road with irregular forces around the region.

Would proper 5.7 be viable against that equipment?

[Nephrology]

While the discussion around 5.7 in a military context is interesting, I am still a little confused about the domestic interest in this round for civilian self-defense. Particularly given that my cursory search suggests that practice ammo retails at 75 cents per round.

IT does seem like a fun .22 mag type shooting experience.... but then Id just buy .22 mag at less than half the price per round.

I would certainly never carry one.

[Le Français]

I am still a little confused about the domestic interest in this round for civilian self-defense. Particularly given that my cursory search suggests that practice ammo retails at 75 cents per round.

Most (almost all) guns kept for self defense are never used for that, and rarely for practice or training. They just sit around as a physical accessory to the owner's fantasy. So, ammo cost and terminal effectiveness aren't often at the top of the list. Is it "cool"?

The P-F types (some of 'em) who actually prepare for a determined, armed opponent who needs to be stopped are vastly outnumbered by the "I'll just slip this Mossad Beretta 71 in my boot, and when I'm home oh boy you better believe the sound of my pump action will make them wish they'd worn brown pants" crowd.

[john c]

While the discussion around 5.7 in a military context is interesting, I am still a little confused about the domestic interest in this round for civilian self-defense. Particularly given that my cursory search suggests that practice ammo retails at 75 cents per round.

IT does seem like a fun .22 mag type shooting experience.... but then Id just buy .22 mag at less than half the price per round.

I would certainly never carry one.

I’m going from memory here, but the 5.7, from a pistol, has similar muzzle velocity as a .22 mag from a rifle. So the 5.7/.22 mag comparison isn’t really apples to apples. The 5.7 is a much more powerful cartridge. Plus it’s more reliable and feeds much better.

I agree that the 5.7 isn’t an ideal self defense cartridge.

I see it as an updated .22 hornet, which is a great varmint round. I’d love to get a Ruger 77/22 or CZ in the caliber.

I find the 5.7 pistols “neat”, but I don’t plan on buying one. I’m super stoked to see a new pistol operating system patented and manufactured, more than anything.


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[TGS]

Are we talking about using 5.7 and 4.6 to defeat armor used by the same near-peer foes the new 6.8x51mm cartridge is intended to defeat? The cartridge we're adopting because we can't make 5.56mm do the same job? That armor?

No.

Soft armor.

And it's also been suggested by observers and reports from Ukraine that many Russian units are not even issued the plates with the carriers.
How accurate that is, is up for debate, or how it would apply to a larger conflict and not a regional one is also, but I've also seen reports that many US units were still issuing PASGT armor well after it had been officially replaced.
That's also the majority of what had been handed out to local forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will keep showing up a lot down the road with irregular forces around the region.

Would proper 5.7 be viable against that equipment?

100%.

[hiro]

No.

Soft armor.



100%.

Given what's reported in the Doc's ammo forum I posted up thread, I get that going thru the armour is better than being stopped by it but is it really deemed a good solution for the problem or is it what we have at the moment and it'll have to do?

I also remember, please correct me if I'm wrong, that the PDWs the rounds were designed for were to be issued to vehicle crews and support troops. If that's still the case, are there enough PDWs in inventory or the capacity to make more?

I know this is veering off the topic but I sometimes wonder if part of the reason someone like S&W will make a gun is cos there's a surplus of ammo but at 75c a round to train, that can't be the case.