Snatch, Scoop, and Snoop draws (split from SWYNTS thread)

[Clusterfrack]

I think when we analyzed your video some of your scoopish wound up being snatchish?

I think simple words are such artificial oversimplifications of things that they aren’t that useful.

To me:

Scoop means the fingers contact the front strap as the first point of contact.

Everything else has heel / palm of hand contacting backstrap first or at the same time as fingers on front strap.

Whether you call that snatch or what have you.

My typical NON-scoop full speed draw is around 0.60 with a heavy pistol.

With a lighter plastic gun, it’s in the 0.5x range. I just never saw the need to go much faster than that worth the inconsistency.

Yes. Terminology is key here. What I call a snatch could be called a hybrid “snoop”, but I don’t get my thumb fully over before starting to lift the gun.

The biggest advantage of my snatch/snoop for me is the relaxation that comes from deleting the direction change & pause in hand trajectory.

[Clusterfrack]

Let’s let this issue go. It’s derailing the thread, and I agree that a scoop isn’t the best technique for most people.

[JCN]

This is amazing. With this draw you do not need any scoop/snatch or whatever else it is called draw

I made a video of my whatever you call it draw.

No scoop because the gun doesn’t come out of the holster until after the palm is mated to the backstrap.

@Clusterfrack

[cheby]

I made a video of my whatever you call it draw.

No scoop because the gun doesn’t come out of the holster until after the palm is mated to the backstrap.

@Clusterfrack

This is great! You are establishing the grip first - that is exactly what Vogel was talking about.
I understand now that .6s is in dry fire. How far is the target? What would be your draw at, say, 7 or 10yrds? Still, .6s is sporty

[JCN]

This is great! You are establishing the grip first - that is exactly what Vogel was talking about.
I understand now that .6s is in dry fire. How far is the target? What would be your draw at, say, 7 or 10yrds? Still, .6s is sporty

Depends on what kind of percent confidence to hit the target I’m looking for.

Probably 80+% alpha draw at 7 yards at 0.70.



Probably 90+% alpha draw at 7 yards at 0.80.



Usually it’s worth the extra few tenths on the base draw to not miss close alphas.

The 0.6x draw is only for 3ish yards on something like a “Can You Count” classifier.

Or a close 4 aces or something like that.

[Clusterfrack]

I made a video of my whatever you call it draw.

No scoop because the gun doesn’t come out of the holster until after the palm is mated to the backstrap.

I would call that a "snoop" (snatch/scoop hybrid). Snoop Doggy Draw!

Very similar to my draw. I start with my hand in a slightly different place, and wrap my thumb and palm on the way up.

What's notable in both draws is the lack of a reverse in hand trajectory (e.g in a start where hands need to be somewhere else). Ben Stoeger starts with his hands out front, and there's a big reverse in direction. We see that in a lot of top 10 shooters, and it took me a long time to decide I didn't want to do that anymore even if a lot of the best people do.

If it's alright with everyone, I'm going to split this off in a separate thread?

[JCS]

I would call that a "snoop" (snatch/scoop hybrid). Snoop Doggy Draw!

Very similar to my draw. I start with my hand in a slightly different place, and wrap my thumb and palm on the way up.

What's notable in both draws is the lack of a reverse in hand trajectory (e.g in a start where hands need to be somewhere else). Ben Stoeger starts with his hands out front, and there's a big reverse in direction. We see that in a lot of top 10 shooters, and it took me a long time to decide I didn't want to do that anymore even if a lot of the best people do.

If it's alright with everyone, I'm going to split this off in a separate thread?

I have noticed that too with hands out in front. Max Michel has his out in front pretty good. I'm thinking it came from the days of "hands relaxed at sides" draws and they just stuck with it. In terms of efficiency it seems to make sense to have the hands move as little distance as possible.

[Moylan]

I don't know if this is obvious or dumb. I use a scoop draw when I am going to transfer the gun immediately to my support hand. I just keep my right thumb out of the way of the transfer. I think it is cleaner and faster for me. Drawing otherwise, I'm not tempted to try the scoop, maybe because of the big ol beavertail on the sp01.

[JHC]

I do a scoop draw and have > 95% success without adjustment. I also practice a snatch draw.

Great topic! I now understand what a snatch draw is. I knew what the scoop was.

I grew up scooping with a ginormous amount of dry fire from the late 60's onward as kiddo and continued through not long after 9/11 when in a clinic Tom Givens was conducting at Rangemaster he taught the four point (?) - basically hand goes over the grip then straight down to sink the grip. I adopted that for it's consistency and never went back to scooping, impressed as I was that on a couple of occassions training scooping speed I cartwheeled a K frame down the ground out in front of me.

I realize I've never hit the pure speed of the scoop. But the point of this . . . what is the over and straight down draw called?

[JCN]

My general thoughts on scoop versus everything else:

I want one draw. And I want that draw to be the most efficient, simple and bomb proof of a draw that I can build.

So I have one draw that works for surrender starts, turn draws, appendix, open, Glocks, revolvers, CZs, 1911s....

One draw.

The scoop is not that draw. It leaves you vulnerable when there's movement of the legs / hips, a bump of the arm, a sticky or inconsistent holster retention.

It's not universal and I'm loathe to adopt and spend significant amounts of time on a game specific technique that isn't necessary.

While you can "get away with it," it adds unnecessary vulnerability to error.

Most USPSA stages start with movement on the draw and the actual draw speed isn't as important as your index speed.

But even with classifiers that are stand and shoot, I never found a traditional draw holding me back.

In my hands and mind, I'm feeling for that solid thumb / palm contact on the backstrap before pulling up and out of the holster. I'm efficient in doing so, but that's what I'm looking for on my draw. I keep my wrist back by the grip so it minimizes time to travel to get to the gun.

@JHC I call everything else besides scoop.... a regular draw. To me it doesn't matter if I wrap my thumb around fully or not... that's a function of the holster and the fit to my body. But I still have the backstrap mated to the base of my thumb even if the finger part of the thumb is same side.