Snatch, Scoop, and Snoop draws (split from SWYNTS thread)

[Clusterfrack]

@JCN, I agree with you in general. And nearly every trainer does as well, including my former coach who hassled me about sometimes using a scoop draw.

A requirement of practical shooting is to be able to draw the gun safely, reliably, with a consistent index, with hands in any position, and while moving. A snatch draw is the only technique that does all of those things.

However... every fighting form includes more than one strike. A cross is an excellent general purpose punch, but sometimes we need to jab, hook, and uppercut. It hasn't been a problem for me to maintain a snatch and a "snoop" draw (more on this below). As well, I have to maintain my AIWB draw. I don't find this confusing or problematic. NOTE: I'm not recommending this approach to anyone--just explaining it.

Snatch: With web in full contact, grab the gun and snatch it out of the holster. Advantages: safe, works in all positions, and while moving.
Scoop: Pull the gun out with fingers, forming the grip as or after the gun comes out of the holster. Advantages: fast, less tension (single hand trajectory). Disadvantages: requires starting with hand below grip, can lead to fumbling the gun, or an inconsistent grip.
Snoop (scoop/snatch hybrid): Pull the gun out with the fingers, pausing to wrap the thumb base and web around the grip. Advantages: fast, less tension (single hand trajectory). Disadvantages: requires starting with hand below grip.

Snoop draw:




Scoop draw


Snatch draw




Snoop draw dry to 7yd partial

[JCN]

@Clusterfrack by your definitions I never snoop or scoop. I don’t pull the gun out of the holster until I have contact on the backstrap.

Even though I might wrap my fingers to locate and build grip, I don’t pull up until I have full contact.

The major issue with a scoop or snoop or anything else that pulls with fingers is if there is inconsistent retention or obstruction to the path of the gun, the fingers become a stretchy spring that pulls the gun farther away from the backstrap.

I just don’t see how it’s a good idea even if it can be done in certain situations where it’s really not necessary (IMO) either.

[ViniVidivici]

This is good, deserves to be separate subject. Are we calling a normal draw a "snatch" draw?

My thing is, I was taught early on that drawing a sidearm involved forming a solid firing grip on it in the holster. This is most sage and efficient. Was taught that it's bad form to draw, then modify the grip while the gun is out in front.

Alot of reasons for this. For one thing, we don't want to set ourselves up to be dropping the gun, or having to waste time refining the grip. It's grip, up and out, press out, and fire. Maybe you're meeting with the support hand, maybe not.

Walt Rauch has written that, for a defensive sidearm, you should be able to draw, fire multiple accurate shots, and reholster, with one hand. If that is not achievable, something in the system needs to change, whether it be technique or equipment.

I want a SOLID grip on the gun every time it comes out. Me personally, I am 100% practically oriented when it comes to shooting.

It's why I've elected, for example, to do the SWYNTS dryfire routine from concealment. I don't want to train in a way that I'll never deploy the gun, i.e., open top, no concealment. If I ever were to open carry for some outlandish reason, it'd be in at least lvl I retention, no game rigs here. That's just my focus.

I don't compete. Just haven't really had the chance, and would love to, but am only interested in practical styles. Definitely plan on doing some IDPA type stuff one of these days.

When I've taught others, I've always taught to acquire a master grip, THEN draw, press out, aim/refine sight picture, and fire.

I'm focused on the purely defensive (or offensive, as the case may be) role here, and I don't want to set myself up to drop the gun if I'm in a hurry, tired, wet, muddy, freezing, bloody, full of adrenaline, scared shitless, moving, stumbling, having only use of one arm, etc. etc.

Just trying to prepare for the worst here. HA!

Also that solid, repeatable grip helps me maintain a solid, repeatable index. Like JCN and others, I want ONE grip, every time.

Even if it's a few tenths slower, it's more "sure", to me.

[Clusterfrack]

@Clusterfrack by your definitions I never snoop or scoop. I don’t pull the gun out of the holster until I have contact on the backstrap.

Even though I might wrap my fingers to locate and build grip, I don’t pull up until I have full contact.

The major issue with a scoop or snoop or anything else that pulls with fingers is if there is inconsistent retention or obstruction to the path of the gun, the fingers become a stretchy spring that pulls the gun farther away from the backstrap.

I just don’t see how it’s a good idea even if it can be done in certain situations where it’s really not necessary (IMO) either.

To clarify: I don't pull with my fingers. I pull with my arm. For me the cue for a consistent draw of any type is proper orientation and pressure at the web. (That's also what Ben S describes).

There's a big thread on PSTG about all this. I'm not alone in doing a hybrid scoop/snoop draw.

More than one way to skin cats...

But I agree it's not necessary. I like the snoop for speed shoots when possible because it helps me start as relaxed as possible, and I get the fastest most repeatable index with it.

[JCN]

I can hit that grip perfectly all day long. It’s just vision that limits me at that speed. That’s my base draw.

I build vision on top of that to make the hits.

I tested a scoop draw just now compared to my normal draw a few times and there is a difference in time.

The scoop draw was 0.02-0.04 faster….

My issue with random people (not Clusterfrack in particular) is they may not be spending the time to optimize the “normal” draw and compare an inefficient draw to a scoop draw.

When really the comparison should be an ultra efficient normal draw to a scoop draw.

The difference puts me at about 0.02-0.04 delta, not enough for me to work a different type of grip than my normal one.

[medmo]

Very interesting stuff.

It turns out I am a natural born Snatcher.

(Wonder if I now need to seek out independent therapy or if this is something I can bring up with my current team of therapists )

This explains why I have rejected some holsters because I felt they didn't fit. The clearance wouldn't allow for a snatch draw but would work for a scoop. Will have to do some experimentation.

[MVS]

More worthwhile stuff for me. Since starting the SWYNTS drill I have found myself thinking more about the actual draw as that seems to be limiting me in making the times. At the 3 yard line I can get the first shot off in under a second, but not both. Part of this could be my age (54) but I refuse to believe that I can't still get just a little faster. I do know I am going to take my Sig Legion to work and grind off some of that giant beavertail so I quit bashing my thumb on it.

[JCN]

More worthwhile stuff for me. Since starting the SWYNTS drill I have found myself thinking more about the actual draw as that seems to be limiting me in making the times. At the 3 yard line I can get the first shot off in under a second, but not both. Part of this could be my age (54) but I refuse to believe that I can't still get just a little faster. I do know I am going to take my Sig Legion to work and grind off some of that giant beavertail so I quit bashing my thumb on it.

Post up in the SWYNTS thread or PM me a video and I might be able to find you some time on the draw!

[CraigS]

This is very interesting. I enjoy messing around w/ diy kydex holsters. Last summer w/ the new idpa drop and offset allowance I found that I really like to have a complete grip before the gun comes up. That requires room for my thumb. That 'was' no problem, just add a little more spacer between holster and mount. Now w/ the 2023 rules we have the space limited to the width of a mag. Seems my thumb is a fat sucker and it took a bunch of experimenting to get what I think is a legal drop and offset holster combined w/ thumb room. Now I know, (thanks for the pics and video guys) that my preference is a snatch draw. I had started thinking maybe that thumb doesn't really need to be there so tried some dry fire w/ the thumb on the correct side of the grip but not fully positioned. I guess that is a snoop draw, and I can do it, but I prefer not to. BTW JCN, how do you get times for dryfire draws. I have one of the common Compitition Electronics timers but I can't get it to pick up the sound of the hammer click. Do you set it on something so it is right next to the gun when you pull the trigger?

[JCN]

This is very interesting. I enjoy messing around w/ diy kydex holsters. Last summer w/ the new idpa drop and offset allowance I found that I really like to have a complete grip before the gun comes up. That requires room for my thumb. That 'was' no problem, just add a little more spacer between holster and mount. Now w/ the 2023 rules we have the space limited to the width of a mag. Seems my thumb is a fat sucker and it took a bunch of experimenting to get what I think is a legal drop and offset holster combined w/ thumb room. Now I know, (thanks for the pics and video guys) that my preference is a snatch draw. I had started thinking maybe that thumb doesn't really need to be there so tried some dry fire w/ the thumb on the correct side of the grip but not fully positioned. I guess that is a snoop draw, and I can do it, but I prefer not to. BTW JCN, how do you get times for dryfire draws. I have one of the common Compitition Electronics timers but I can't get it to pick up the sound of the hammer click. Do you set it on something so it is right next to the gun when you pull the trigger?

When I draw from concealment or AIWB, then I can't get my thumb around the grip so I pull up but still have the meat of my thumb on the backstrap, just not the digit part wrapped around.

For dryfire times, it's pretty specific to the AMG commander. It's one of the only shot timers out there with sensitivity low enough to pick up dry fire.

But I usually just use a par timer to track dry times for convenience and efficiency sake.