A new 92--It is SAO

[LukeNCMX]

Yeah I love Beretta 92s but the issue over reloads is junk. The shooter in question is a GM running minor power factor reloads. A competition pistol that can’t manage 20k rounds of minor PF loads is unacceptable.

The 9lb recoil spring was a recommendation from Stoeger who ran a zillion rounds through classic 92s with no issue.

Enough people (turnbull, andreas, gun thots guy) have had issues with the 92x Performance guns that there is probably something wrong with those examples of those guns and not shooter errors.

[e_stern]

My $0.02 on this. Dude broke two 92 barrels that come from standard production (There is no difference between a 92A1, 92FS (Italian), or 92X Perf barrel) in the EXACT same way with reloads.

I don't care if he's running 130PF, there are a lot of ways to screw it up. Two failures of the exact same nature with reloads, when hundreds of (S)thousands(/S) millions of rounds have been thrown downrange through the same design for 50 years says to me that he borked something.

Cartridge OAL problems can cause pressure spikes for instance, and everyone here on PF knows this.

Extractor tension issues have nothing to do with a dude blowing up a barrel on his gun with his reloads. I don't know the reason for the issues there as I'm not plugged in to Giovanni anymore, but there's an easy and quick fix for that, 8000 Cougar Extractor spring (P/N C53361) or the Wilson 150% Extractor spring will fix it if you have the issue (I never did in the years I messed with the pistol, but fixed a couple in that fashion for friends since I left Beretta).

As an aside, if you shoot reloads through my current company's product and destroy it, you're on your own. Doesn't matter what it is or what the situation is. We will not and do not ever support or warrant reloads, no matter what the circumstance is. It even says so in the manuals (as it also does in the Beretta manuals). This does not mean that the service response or behavior was correct per se, but remember that when you reload, you assume responsibility.

[Corse]

You would think that the warranty would be void if the ammo was determined to be the problem. I have had issues with so called factory ammo as have others, so it’s not like they are immune from issues.

[Hambo]

Two failures of the exact same nature with reloads by the same guy

The common factor on multiple catastrophic failures is the reloader. I saw one guy trash two rifles through carelessness in reloading (he also put a round in himself via careless gun handling). On another forum I used to participate on, there were often threads about blown up guns, and the problem was always the reloader (again, one guy blew up two guns in a row but didn't think it was his fault).

I love reloading, but it's a hobby that doesn't suffer fools.

[LukeNCMX]

I don't know the guy Andreas Yankopolus personally. I just know of him as a regular contributor to Practical Shooting Training Group. From what I have seen/heard there he is an accomplished GM (Just Won Georgia Production State Championship), and has years of experience in practical shooting as a competitor and an instructor. He has good experience using a lot of different production style platforms and reloading for them as well. I know it is easy to point fingers when the dude is the common denominator but don't make the mistake of assuming he is just a random internet idiot who probably doesn't know what he is doing.

This is the kind of skilled dude who is not on anyone's payroll who you should probably not dismiss out of hand, especially if you are a competitor invested in the 92x Performance platform.

[YVK]

I don't know the guy Andreas Yankopolus personally. I just know of him as a regular contributor to Practical Shooting Training Group. From what I have seen/heard there he is an accomplished GM (Just Won Georgia Production State Championship), and has years of experience in practical shooting as a competitor and an instructor. He has good experience using a lot of different production style platforms and reloading for them as well. I know it is easy to point fingers when the dude is the common denominator but don't make the mistake of assuming he is just a random internet idiot who probably doesn't know what he is doing.

I was about to say that, unless he changed his reload recipe drastically, he has shot a metric ton of this stuff through numerous other guns. Hopefully he keeps his reloads the same with his next gun.

[e_stern]

You would think that the warranty would be void if the ammo was determined to be the problem. I have had issues with so called factory ammo as have others, so it’s not like they are immune from issues.

Blanket void if reloaded ammunition is used, no matter how experienced the shooter. Period.

Of course Ammunition companies make mistakes, but Ammunition companies will step in and own mistakes and pay for replacements. The firearms manufacturer ONLY validates guns with SAAMI or CIP spec ammunition, and Ammunition companies certify that they are loading to those standards. There is no way to verify a reloaded cartridge is loaded to that, therefore the shooter is owning any potential mistake and the manufacturer will stand fast on that. Again, based on two failures of the exact same nature in a CIP Proofed barrel, that's 100% on the shooter in the eyes of the manufacturer. That's the point of the CIP proofing, to ensure that the barrel and firearm are up to the CIP standardization requirements for strength.

As for the shooter, he certainly appears to be an accomplished shooter and reloader (I'm not familiar with him), but the response that he received is better than policy even if Beretta CS was lacking regarding communications. Generally he'd be told to pound sand per policy and they would hold fast on that, but from what I can gather, they worked with him and got him replacements even if some of their behavior was weird and communications appear to have sucked donkey dong. Overall from the outside but intimately familiar with their policies, I'd say they get a 1/10 for comms and a 4/10 for customer consideration despite having a written policy to the contrary. The 4/10 being because I don't see how a Tomcat and a US made 92X are equivalent to a Performance..... *shrug*

[ccmdfd]

The common factor on multiple catastrophic failures is the reloader. I saw one guy trash two rifles through carelessness in reloading (he also put a round in himself via careless gun handling). On another forum I used to participate on, there were often threads about blown up guns, and the problem was always the reloader (again, one guy blew up two guns in a row but didn't think it was his fault).

I love reloading, but it's a hobby that doesn't suffer fools.

What mistake did he make that blew up 2 rifles?

Asking as I'm just getting into reloading.

[LukeNCMX]

Blanket void if reloaded ammunition is used, no matter how experienced the shooter. Period.

Of course Ammunition companies make mistakes, but Ammunition companies will step in and own mistakes and pay for replacements. The firearms manufacturer ONLY validates guns with SAAMI or CIP spec ammunition, and Ammunition companies certify that they are loading to those standards. There is no way to verify a reloaded cartridge is loaded to that, therefore the shooter is owning any potential mistake and the manufacturer will stand fast on that. Again, based on two failures of the exact same nature in a CIP Proofed barrel, that's 100% on the shooter in the eyes of the manufacturer. That's the point of the CIP proofing, to ensure that the barrel and firearm are up to the CIP standardization requirements for strength.

Its understandable why manufacturers have a policy like this but that is not really the issue in my eyes. I see it as this: can a 92x Performance be trusted to perform satisfactorily under common competitor use? Is what Andreas did with those guns common competitor use? Among the various production gun competitors, is it wise to invest in or continue to use a 92x Performance over a Shadow 2, Tanfoglio Stock 2, Canik Rival etc? I get warranty claims with reloads are not a thing but in reality almost everyone is using reloads with these guns and they gotta run them because if they won't a competing platform will.

[Ben_G]

Its understandable why manufacturers have a policy like this but that is not really the issue in my eyes. I see it as this: can a 92x Performance be trusted to perform satisfactorily under common competitor use? Is what Andreas did with those guns common competitor use? Among the various production gun competitors, is it wise to invest in or continue to use a 92x Performance over a Shadow 2, Tanfoglio Stock 2, Canik Rival etc? I get warranty claims with reloads are not a thing but in reality almost everyone is using reloads with these guns and they gotta run them because if they won't a competing platform will.

If I'm overstepping here, someone let me know and I'll step back on this one.

That said, again it needs to be reiterated that the barrel on the Performance is the same all the way back to the 92FS/M9 and everything in-between. A lot of competitive shooters have run reloads in these barrels for longer than I've been alive, and this is a new one as far as I'm aware (that happened twice in quick succession with the same guy). I know several shooters with incredibly more reloads than this through several examples of 92XPs. I think its safe to say that yes, there's something that this shooter/reloader did that is not common to competitive use. There's a thousand variables that go into making ammo; have enough of them go wrong enough times, and you have a problem. One scoop of bad brass off a range thats not annealed and gets mixed into a big batch? Some spotty materials from the shortages during COVID? It's impossible for us to tell, which is why the official policy is you're on your own when you run them.

There are perfectly good reasons to choose to shoot a CZ, Canik, SIG, Glock, S&W, etc; I strongly feel that concerns over the durability of barrel on a 92X Performance is not a reason to discount that platform.

18 Rounds 9mm with frame mounted safety would be amazing!!

Thank you, yes, that was the idea! With inexpensive, widely available, and reliable mags to boot.