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Thread: Budget/value AR Purchase Question

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    On M4C, guys who do work for other manufacturers are quick to point out that PSA buys reject parts. Unsurprisingly, when asked for proof it's crickets. The only 'substantive' reply I've every received is it's common knowledge within the industry..

    If you look at the data, PSA makes and sells a lot of AR's: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...t-report-afmer

    BCM - 5,681 rifles mfg - 17,130 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

    Colt - 23,995 rifles mfg - 1263 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

    PSA = 60,438 rifles mfg - 289,537 misc f/a mfg (serial numbered lowers, etc.)

    Aside from that, they probably sell several times the number of LPK's that, as an example, BCM does.

    There are obviously QC problems that can go along with quantity sales; OTOH, I'd imagine that if you were buying triggers and hammers from Schmid, that guy that buys 60,000 probably gets a better price then the guy buying 5,000

    PSA and BCM (as an example) obviously have different business models. PSA is figuratively making Ford Focuses, and BCM is making Mercedes A Classes. At the end of the day they both get you there. The Indian still makes more difference than the arrow.
    Keep in mind things change.

    PSA absolutely did get where they are today buying other companies reject parts and selling them as PSA “PTAC” and “Freedom” parts / guns.

    They also had very inconsistent assembly.

    I don’t know that either one of these is still true today.

    BCM is not making Mercedes. They are making Toyotas.

    KAC would be a better analogy for Mercedes.,

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Keep in mind things change.

    PSA absolutely did get where they are today buying other companies reject parts and selling them as PSA “PTAC” and “Freedom” parts / guns.

    They also had very inconsistent assembly.

    I don’t know that either one of these is still true today.

    BCM is not making Mercedes. They are making Toyotas.

    KAC would be a better analogy for Mercedes.,
    Could I offer that Colts are the Toyotas, BCM are Mercedes, and KAC/ Hodge etc, are the tactical Ferraris and Lambos? Overseas, Mercedes cars and trucks are very utilitarian; cabs, work trucks, etc.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOTS View Post
    Could I offer that Colts are the Toyotas, BCM are Mercedes, and KAC/ Hodge etc, are the tactical Ferraris and Lambos? Overseas, Mercedes cars and trucks are very utilitarian; cabs, work trucks, etc.
    Can you own an AR-15 in those places ?

    Ferraris and Lambos are useless toys.

    KAC / Hodge guns are made to be hard use working tools. Though in the case of Hodge most of the hard use units are complete uppers on Colt or FN GOV lowers. Exactly like a Diesel Mercedes taxi that will have 500k miles on it.

    Nor is BCM > Colt quality wise. Quality wise they are a wash and despite Colt fan boi / gun fondler fantasies, they source many parts from the same suppliers.

  4. #14
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    I think that the SIG M400 Tread offers a good package and value; I've been pleased with mine, which has been upgraded with SIG and BCM and VTAC components. There was one assembly QC issue-the firing pin retaining cotter pin was improperly installed, resulting it splitting apart and wrapping around...

    Nicely reinforced my protocol of field-stripping, cleaning and lubing any gun before any use....


    Best, Jon
    Sponsored by Check-Mate Industries and BH Spring Solutions
    Certified Glock Armorer

  5. #15
    Member ASH556's Avatar
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    Work guns aside, the average consumer would be best served with a Smith Sport (maybe a Ruger). Add Magpul furniture to take and put a Vortex or Sig dot on it and roll on.

    PSA ends up looking good on paper with features, but they usually end up with more issues than it’s worth.
    Food Court Apprentice
    Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    Work guns aside, the average consumer would be best served with a Smith Sport (maybe a Ruger). Add Magpul furniture to take and put a Vortex or Sig dot on it and roll on.

    PSA ends up looking good on paper with features, but they usually end up with more issues than it’s worth.
    PSA within the last year or two has gotten noticeably better, but they still take illogical shortcuts. They’re making receivers barrels and hand guards in the house now and they’re buying their lower parts from Schmidt tool but they’re still using the black Chinese springs to save a few cents.

    From the small sample size I’ve seen S&W has noticeably better / more consistent QC and assembly than Ruger.

  7. #17
    Although this is not a complete answer, I thought I should mention it. At the current time, if you look around on Gunbroker you can occasionally find a complete Colt 6920 upper for as cheap as $400 with BCG and charging handle. Considering that's only a little more than an SOLGW East India upper that doesn't have a BCG or CH, that's probably the best deal for a quality upper I've seen. The only question then would be an equal bargain for a quality lower.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    PSA within the last year or two has gotten noticeably better, but they still take illogical shortcuts. They’re making receivers barrels and hand guards in the house now and they’re buying their lower parts from Schmidt tool but they’re still using the black Chinese springs to save a few cents.
    May I ask which springs you’re referring to? Things like takedown pin and buffer retaining springs, mag release button springs? Something else?
    I have a Form 1’d PSA lower with a Geissele trigger, and would like to feel confident that all springs essential to reliable function are of good quality.
    Also open to recommendations for quality springs for those deemed essential to reliability.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    May I ask which springs you’re referring to? Things like takedown pin and buffer retaining springs, mag release button springs? Something else?
    I have a Form 1’d PSA lower with a Geissele trigger, and would like to feel confident that all springs essential to reliable function are of good quality.
    Also open to recommendations for quality springs for those deemed essential to reliability.
    The obvious ones being the trigger hammer spring. I haven’t taken a recent one apart and looked at the others but I can’t think of a reason they would source lower Springs from different places.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    May I ask which springs you’re referring to? Things like takedown pin and buffer retaining springs, mag release button springs? Something else?
    I have a Form 1’d PSA lower with a Geissele trigger, and would like to feel confident that all springs essential to reliable function are of good quality.
    Also open to recommendations for quality springs for those deemed essential to reliability.
    Since you said you have a Geissele trigger, I'm guessing it's using the Geissele trigger and hammer springs, so you should be fine with that.

    As far as other springs and small parts in the lower, I'd say the main thing would be the buffer spring. Other than that, most of the others in the lower are not as critical. The fitment between the grip, safety spring, detent, and safety can be a bit of an issue but, not usually one that's going to deadline your gun.

    As far as small parts sources, here's some I can recommend:

    FN America - Primary Arms tends to have a fair amount of their small parts which I haven't seen elsewhere. They're quality, and some of them are quite inexpensive.

    Expo Arms - Primary Arms' house brand. I have some of their barrels, handguards, and small parts and have been impressed with their quality. Here's their small parts kit if you want something cheap that's not a full LPK.

    Forward Controls Design spring kit - Their stuff is always GTG and they only source from quality manufacturers. Here's their detents and small parts kit.

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