Provisional Limited Optics

[ECK]

With regard to the Limited-Optics discussion:

I’m against adding SAO guns to Carry-Ops for no other reason than the high popularity of CO means it already appeals to a lot of people as-is, so don’t mess with it. I’m not afraid of 2011’s beating me.

Creating a provisional division in Ltd-Ops, keeping it minor PF only… yeah sure, why not. Leave it provisional for a year or two, see where it goes. Make decisions to keep, nuke, or modify based on the results. That said, I’ve yet to see a Provisional division not be adopted…. I own a 9mm 2011 that is just gathering dust now that I rarely shoot 3-gun and my diminishing eyesight drove me towards CO. If LO is adopted that might be a good excuse to get the slide milled for a RDS. Or just shoot my Shadow 2 in LO and start hammer down sans magwell.

Ask far as member comment before making any decision -ABSOLUTELY. This is what the membership complained about with the equipment rule changes circa 2020 and 2021. So I’m glad to see the current admin/BoD is being responsive. That said, this is a pretty polarized topic. People on both sides of the fence with some strong opinions. They’re not going to make everybody happy regardless of the outcome.

Allowing optics in L-10 seems like a move to resuscitate a division and boost its appeal. I don’t see this getting a big response, but that is just me.

[Gio]

Factory length mag w/ short mag extension:
Pros: Levels the playing field so the 15 rnd guys can add a basepad (that fits the box) to catch up to the factory 19 rnd mags. A boon for companies making extended basepads that fit the box and increase a factory mag capacity to +1, +2, +3, etc..
Cons: Yet another equipment race, only this time it is in basepads, springs, and followers. As with mag length, Prod essentially becomes a 19 rnd division (if 15 is better than 10, 19 must be way more better… right?). Same comment about innovators gonna innovate to increasing mag capacity to 20-21 rnds, and now we’re getting close to Limited and CO territory, further blurring the distinction between Prod and the hi-cap divisions.

My vote is for this one: as much capacity as you can fit in the production box.

Low cap is dead. Stage design for low cap is non-existent, even at most level 2-3 matches unless it's a match designed specifically for low cap. The idea that someone can show up with a gun they just bought at the gun store with everything that came in the box with it and be half way competitive in production is a misperception as well. Production has been an equipment race for the last decade, between companies that make guns specifically to maximize every bit of the rules (CZ, tanfo), to USPSA relaxing a lot of the production rules allowing drop in trigger groups, gas pedals, removing real weight limits, etc. If I take a new shooter to a USPSA match and all they have is their nightstand or EDC Glock 17/19 and a few magazines, I have them shoot limited minor anyway because navigating USPSA courses with 10 round mags is equivalent to setting the difficulty to hard-mode.

[Jim Watson]

Instead of counting to 10, ROs will now need to count to 15 or 15+1. Not all ROs are very diligent about counting to 10 as it is. 15 is going to be even worse.

**Note: I haven’t shot IDPA since they went to 15 rnds in SSP, is it a good thing or bad thing?

RO counting shots: When I was shooting CAS, there was a club whose pre-match announcement included:
"If you are going to do something unsafe or illegal to win a prize, raise your hand and we will give you a trophy. You won't even have to shoot."

I only shoot USPSA at one place these days and they have gone to nothing longer (or shorter) than 20 round "medium" stages to conserve ammo, although pre-Covid they had a good number of 30-32 shot "long" stages.
I could see a 19+1 limit for the junk divisions, so if you were careful, you wouldn't have to reload at all.

SSP-15 in IDPA has led to longer stages, more of them at maximum 18 or with hard to hit steel, and mandatory downloaded starts to force reloads. Not all the time, but more than before. I don't consider it an improvement and after a few trial runs, I went back to my usual ESP.
The provision allowing chamber loaded "Cooper" reloads is a help to me, though. I am surprised to see so few shooters taking advantage of it.

[fatdog]

All the trends make me wonder if the entire "major" distinction won't disappear at some point in the next 10 years, minimum PF and one scoring system.

I did think they were going to have to find some way to let double stack non compensated 9mm SA style guns with optics into the game at some point. They are too popular out in the world and don't really belong in open.

[ECK]

My vote is for this one: as much capacity as you can fit in the production box.

Low cap is dead. Stage design for low cap is non-existent, even at most level 2-3 matches unless it's a match designed specifically for low cap. The idea that someone can show up with a gun they just bought at the gun store with everything that came in the box with it and be half way competitive in production is a misperception as well. Production has been an equipment race for the last decade, between companies that make guns specifically to maximize every bit of the rules (CZ, tanfo), to USPSA relaxing a lot of the production rules allowing drop in trigger groups, gas pedals, removing real weight limits, etc. If I take a new shooter to a USPSA match and all they have is their nightstand or EDC Glock 17/19 and a few magazines, I have them shoot limited minor anyway because navigating USPSA courses with 10 round mags is equivalent to setting the difficulty to hard-mode.

I don’t disagree with you. Innovators gonna innovate, and part of me thinks that is a good idea. And like I said above I would probably shoot Prod more if they increased the capacity, but my concern is where the max capacity will top out at, and is turning Prod into a “hi-cap” division the right thing for the sport. 15 is a lot easier to wrap my head around.

Since you brought up weight limit changes, I have to point out that raising the weight limit in Prod from whatever the OFM specified + 4 oz pre-2020 was based on the logic to level the playing field regardless of what gun you happened to own. Pre-2020, a Glock 17 was capped out at 29 oz max weight (OFM+ 4 oz), and had to shoot heads up against guns weighing in the 40-50 oz range. Under the 2020 rule change to 59 oz, they basically leveled the field so a G17 shooter (if they wanted to) could add as much weight as they wanted so they could be on par with the all-steel framed guns like the Tangfo, CZ, Beretta, etc. Personally I think there is a point of diminishing returns with hand gun weight, and what works best for me is mid-40 oz. Guns that are too heavy slow me down on transitions and the decrease in split times doesn’t offset the longer transition time. But the point is we now have a more level playing field when it comes to weight.

Factory mag + extension (that fits the box) allows the playing field to be leveled by allowing the guns with 15-17 rnds mags to add an extension to catch up to the guns with factory mag that holds 19 (the 19’ers are probably too long to add an extension and still fit the prod/ss box).

[Cory]

Huh? That is what Limited Optic IS. Assuming they go ahead and implement it, which seems likely.

Seems like somebody at USPSA was paying attention to new gun introductions.
SA Prodigy, EAA Witness, Oracle, and DWX (will require machining or a wait for a factory optic model.)
Entry level guns for a new game, plus a draw for owners of Staccato and similar who are tired of solo drills and beer cans.

Gotcha. I missed the no major scoring bit. I was thinking 40s would still rule the roost.

Im cool with limited loosing major scoring, and being dot/iron mixed or just dot.

[ECK]

All the trends make me wonder if the entire "major" distinction won't disappear at some point in the next 10 years, minimum PF and one scoring system.

I did think they were going to have to find some way to let double stack non compensated 9mm SA style guns with optics into the game at some point. They are too popular out in the world and don't really belong in open.

The number of people shooting major PF at my local club, compared to a few years ago, has greatly diminished. If you reload 9mm, it’s easy to scrounge brass at my matches without having to sort out the .40’s.

However I think major PF will persist in Open and Limited divisions at Area and Nationals, Nils’ performance at 2022 Nats notwithstanding since he an outlier. I’m thinking the popularity of major PF will continue at the higher level matches, which also lends to shooting them at local matches.

I think the popularity of compensators is increasing across the board, not just with SAO guns. The 365 Sig Macro is a good example of a slide with integral comp. That might become a thing sometime down the road, but for now I think it best to not open that Pandora’s box. I did note the rules committee updated the definition of “compensator” in the proposed rule changes probably to get ahead of some of the new things coming out.

[Gio]

Since you brought up weight limit changes, I have to point out that raising the weight limit in Prod from whatever the OFM specified + 4 oz pre-2020 was based on the logic to level the playing field regardless of what gun you happened to own. Pre-2020, a Glock 17 was capped out at 29 oz max weight (OFM+ 4 oz), and had to shoot heads up against guns weighing in the 40-50 oz range. Under the 2020 rule change to 59 oz, they basically leveled the field so a G17 shooter (if they wanted to) could add as much weight as they wanted so they could be on par with the all-steel framed guns like the Tangfo, CZ, Beretta, etc. Personally I think there is a point of diminishing returns with hand gun weight, and what works best for me is mid-40 oz. Guns that are too heavy slow me down on transitions and the decrease in split times doesn’t offset the longer transition time. But the point is we now have a more level playing field when it comes to weight.

I don't disagree that the weight change helped the polymer gun shooters more, but it took the division even further away from the concept of "bring your factory gun from your nightstand to compete", unless your factory gun is a CZ shadow 2 with 5 extra magazines.

I think the concept of production was to create a lower cost barrier of entry to the sport when it was created, but it's just as much of an arms race as any other division now, so lets just remove the façade and make it limited minor like it's currently being played.

[Jim Watson]

I read that .40 Major is about 50% of Limited at major matches, and most of the high scores.
I don't know how long that will last, it is much less common at local shoots.

I have wondered about the feasibility of a unitary power factor based on Real 9mm, a 124+P at SAAMI 1180 is f 146.

I know that Carry Comps are showing up, and nobody has worried about singing his eyebrows or blowing jacket scrapings up his nose yet. But I hope they are a long way away from sanctioned competition.

[ECK]

I don't disagree that the weight change helped the polymer gun shooters more, but it took the division even further away from the concept of "bring your factory gun" to compete.

I think that horse left the barn a long time ago.

It’s how divisions become created.