I couldn't absolutely freaking agree more. I have had very similar thoughts often based on my service and experiences.Originally Posted by Lost River
I couldn't absolutely freaking agree more. I have had very similar thoughts often based on my service and experiences.
To answer that last part: quite possibly, yes. Some things can only be mitigated and controlled so much before a failure. You can't stop a cold snap from freezing the ground, causing it to heave, and busting lines. And you can only bury them so deep to prevent it. That is just one example. Pipes get old, and its not realistic to have brand new pipes, everywhere in a system. Maintenance gets deferred because the tax base doesn't cover the real costs of operating systems. Voters oppose new taxes, because they don't see or understand the issues facing their local cities/districts/counties/systems. Dumbasses don't call blue stakes before digging and take a trackhoe to your lines. Criminals break into your sites and wreck equipment or steal it to turn for their next baggie of magic dust.
Leadership can be a problem. Government can be a problem. But it isn't the only thing to blame.
Like every other industry, water providers are dealing with massive increases in costs for everything, shitty to non-existent parts and equipment inventories, labor issues, etc...
We have been waiting for a gear box and actuator for 9 months at work. We can't operate that filter in our filtration plant without that valve, so it cuts the theoretical capacity by 1/8th (there are 8 filters).
The main chemical we used to use for flocculation (making the small dirt particles in the water stick together, so they get heavy, and settle out) became unavailable Just before Covid struck. Lithium battery production ramping up supposedly was diverting the precursors, making it cost more to get, then eventually we just couldn't get it. At any cost. So we switched chemicals, which took a lot of work, because the state has to approve the new process and chemical. The new chemical was cheaper, but we had to feed more to get the same result, a lot more than was planned. Then the supplier increased the cost of that chemical, 3 times in 18 months, so it now costs about 300% more than it did. BTW, they can't hire drivers to get the chemical delivered in a timely fashion. Or the noob drivers deliver chemicals to the wrong plant. Etc...
It took 6 months to get a chemical dosing pump delivered. Cost on that pump went from $1600, to $2700 in that time... and we are waiting (another 6 months) for the second one now. These used to be about a week or two out. Parts to repair another chemical dosing pump took 3 months to show up. Simple things like #60 chains and sprockets take a month to get instead of same day or a few days. Some things are simple unavailable... and you have to make do, or do without.
They have raised the starting wage for plant operators $3-4/hr in the last year... and still are having a hard time filling slots.
Try planning and budgeting for all these things... crystal balls don't work so well, it seems.
There are multiple things working against everyone, but the USA is blessed, and folks should slow down on tossing around blame. I'm not here to defend anyone in this specific case... But most folks have zero clue how much it costs, money wise, labor wise, humanity wise... to get clean water to your tap. It's very easy to take it for granted. But just remember, on the holidays, or in a blizzard, or baking heat, often 24/7/365, someone is sitting in a chair monitoring a SCADA system, running your water plant, or plowing your snow ( @Crazy Dane ), or otherwise maintaining your 1st world infrastructure. I've spent my share of time on Christmas or New Years, working night shifts, away from my family, so folks could take a shower in the morning, or have a glass of water.
Some quiet guy, walking rounds at 3 AM, is responsible for the health of tens of thousands of folks. No one knows his name when they turn on their sink, except the one time he screws up. And sometimes he'll get the blame, even if circumstances were outside his control.
Its a mostly thankless job.
I want to quote this... because its 100% true. Liking it isn't enough.
I got you,... but I think you just made my point with your post. Shit happens, I get it; but what you describe is an outfit pro-actively working to keep things going. I suspect had *you* been in charge of the Asheville water system, things would have either never blown up (as bad as they did), or, you would have been raising hell trying to get funding to fix/upgrade the system to avoid such an eventuality.
Maybe I'm just jaded. I recall millions of dollars being funneled to New Orleans to improve storm water management. The money went somewhere, but the fixes/upgrades never happened. Then when a hurricane hits and the city is flooded, the finger-pointing starts. I would be curious to know how much money the city/water system woke Asheville has spent in recent years on DIE (diversity, inclusion, equity) as compared to upgrades and maintenance for the water system. I also note that no surrounding cities/systems had issues of th same type even though the entire region got the same super-cold weather. The trend seems to be to just rock along with band-aids, but no real fixes until something goes completely sideways, and then to say, "Well, there was nothing we could do."
Another recent example of this is the shooting up of electrical sub-stations. People in charge can claim, "We had no way of knowing this might happen." (Even though that isn't true.) And they can cite the cost of upgrades. Got it. But what does it cost the electric company and the community when these sub-stations go down? I understand you can't defend/prepare for everything, but I'm kind of tired of people in charge abdicating their responsibility while continuing to collect a big fat paycheck. Do your damn job.
ETA: My frustration isn't *just* with infrastructure taking a dump (anyone remember all the "shovel-ready jobs"? - where did all *that* money go?). It's people failing to do their jobs all across the public sector while, again, collecting a nice paycheck. Our court system is a joke. And, for instance,... you would think that an outfit called the Bureau of Prisons would be in the business of keeping people in confinement; and you would be wrong. The BOP looks for every possible excuse to undercut sentences and put inmates on the street early - often undercutting legit sentences by *years*. That's just one example of which I have personal knowledge. I have about zero trust at this point of the folks who drive their swivel chairs at work. I believe that rednecks and hillbillys are the ones keeping this nation going at this point; but I don't know how long even they can hold it together.
My apologies for the rant...
Last edited by Tensaw; 12-30-2022 at 09:39 AM.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
No one is coming. It is up to us.
I only opened a few years of Ashville's budget and their water is by far their biggest expenditure. They've got some serious DEI stuff in here (Reparations for slavery!) but it's about 30-40 times less money than the water department budget (1-2 Million per year vs 30-40 million). There might be a gap in terms of time and attention but it doesn't appear to be a money issue.
I like this post; I think the frustration with the public sector (and the voters) failing to prioritize basic infrastructure over graft, corruption, and irrelevancy is right on. But I think it's a lot more complicated, hard to identify, and hard to solve than simply saying it's linked to the political left spending money on dumb stuff.
Around me, it's the political left that wants to spend money on things like bridges that don't fall down, so there's some complexity here.
Fair enough. Thank you for that.
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
No one is coming. It is up to us.
Upgrading water infrastructure is a nightmare. It's tough enough here in the West where the cities are younger. Water stuff got built and buried. Other stuff got built over it or around it. It's not like replacing a power line. To fix water, you have to dig up a lot of stuff, some of which might be under someones private property. It's expensive and disruptive. The rates we pay for water are unlikely to be adequate to do the wholesale upgrades that so many systems need if they are to be made resilient.
Politicians hate allocating money for projects like this. Far easier to ignore it and hope it doesn't fail on your watch.
And like it or not, climate change is a factor. People can fight about whether it's human caused or not, but the change is real. Maybe we should refer to it as "climate change since the time North America got developed" because that's the paradigm that most planning reflects. But when your locale is either hotter or colder, or more susceptible to wild weather swings (which I think is the most likely bad news scenario), your 1820-based weather threat model isn't going to prepare you very well for what happens next. If your frost line is based on a consistently mild climate, but changes in arctic air patterns will drop cold air farther south, your water distribution plan is screwed. Not all the time, but sometimes.
With apologies to everyone for my continued posting on this....
The points you, as well as Mr. Roland, make, - again - kind of make the point. It's complicated - which is exactly why we need adequate funding (don't get me started on waste, fraud, and abuse) and competent, conscientious people working on the problem. Ironically, here is a case in point that happened just now.
Locally, the state of Virginia and Appalachia Power Company partnered with partnered with private industry to bring fiber optic 5G internet to my rural area. This project started over two years ago. Two days ago, we got an email from the private company (which was made flush with public money) that they expect to have service here by the end of 2023. Oh, and by the way, that same company is actively trying to fire up the same scheme in West Virginia when they haven't even remotely finished the first demonstration project here! All the while citing supply chain issues... My response? Just sent Elon Musk almost $700 for some Starlink *just now* (Starlink app is loading on phone as I type this). I cannot believe that the state hasn't been raising hell with this company that is over two years behind on their project. I suspect the "end of 2023" statement is simply more can-kicking by this company. Meanwhile, Elon is just getting it done.
Too, just this morning I had a load of firewood logs dropped off at my place by a hard-working young man. I was more than happy to fork over the cash to *him* - to steal a line, "He earnt that buck like a mother...." Again, he is hustling, getting things done. Good on him. Glad to do business with him.
Again, sorry for the OTish rants. But if we don't get our collective asses in gear, it won't be long before we find our own selves in a third world situation. We are already approaching banana republic status. I am quite concerned about the direction our country seems to be going; politically and culturally and I think infrastructure failures are at least somewhat of result of that direction.
I'll shut up now. Really... I will...
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
No one is coming. It is up to us.
Let me share what I know and what is rumored about Asheville's water system.
It is city owned.
It is said to be the oldest water system in the state.
It is said that there are still wooden pipes in the system.
It is said that a past manager that got let go burnt the maps showing where all the lines are buried on his last day. Sort of proven by water line breaks popping up and the repair guys saying they didn't even know a line was there. I know a few years ago the city spent a bunch of money on mapping.
It is said that the state DOT buried the mains that feed the city west of the river under 10s of feet of fill when I26 was constructed. Depending on what old FF told the story it was somewhere between 40 and 90 feet of fill making the line 60 to 110 feet deep.
I know where there is a fire hydrant that comes off of a 60 inch main. DO NOT OPEN! It has no valves on the feeder line and is well protected from impact.
Several years ago, the state representative for the city/area introduced and got passed a bill in the state house that basically stole the water system from the city. Took it away from the city and gave it to MSD, the sewer system guys, with no compensation to the city. City sued and the whole state of the water system was held up by the judicial system only allowing for minimal maintenance causing disrepair and zero upgrades for a few years.
This was not the first weather event causing a widespread. 2004 saw 2 hurricanes coming through on top of each other causing massive flooding. There was a washout at one of the intakes damaging 2 60-inch mains. I don't remember how long it was down then.
Every winter that sees temperatures fall below freezing for several days will cause the ground to freeze and heave breaking water mains all over the city.
I still do not have a full understanding of why the 1 treatment facility went offline. this is why the water has been off for so long this time. It has been stated that there was a huge draw on it right before the big freeze thus leading to its shut down.
I think we probably agree far more than we disagree. My career was in a city fire department. I bugs me when the worker bees present problems and solutions only to see the pols and voters turn a deaf ear, followed by loud yelling and finger pointing at the worker bees when things melt down.
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