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Thread: Thoughts on USPSA divisions

  1. #1
    Site Supporter CleverNickname's Avatar
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    Thoughts on USPSA divisions

    Ben Berry's most recent podcast notes that there are potential Production rule changes in January, and he has some thoughts about what should happen. To summarize what he said:

    He makes the observation that there should be divisions for three levels of firearm modification:
    Low-to-no modification - Production's original intent - nearly-stock guns shooting factory or factory-equivalent ammo.
    Medium modification - Limited - Most things allowed except optics and compensators.
    Very modified - Open - Almost no equipment rules, where custom reloaded ammo is almost required.

    But with rule changes over the years, Production is almost Limited Minor, and CO is almost Limited Minor Optics. They're not stock gun divisions anymore, and there really isn't any place for the shooter who doesn't want to modify their gun. When you take those three levels of modification and subdivide them into optics & non-optics, you get five divisions: Low-modification irons & optics, medium modification irons & optics, and high modification optics. There's not really an interest in a high-modification irons division.

    His proposals:
    1. CO becomes Limited Optics (medium-modification optics). Single action, magwells, etc are allowed as in Limited now.
    2. Production returns to its roots (low-modification irons).
    a. Instead of getting into minutiae about internal parts modifications / substitution, first have a trigger pull weight test like IPSC where there's a 5lb pull on the first DA shot & and no limit for subsequent SA shots, or 3lb pull for striker-fired. Second, allow a small (~2 oz) weight differential from whatever is the out-of-the-box weight for that gun model. If someone can make a change but still stay within the firearm weight limit and the trigger pull requirements, then the change probably isn't a big deal.
    b. Go back to requiring 2000 guns to be manufactured to get on the Production gun list, and get more accurate weights for guns from manufacturers. (He says that the current Production gun list is inaccurate.)
    c. Change to a 15-round capacity. The 10-round limit is due to the expired AWB and doesn't make sense anymore. If stage planning with <=10-round magazines is interesting, there's still Single Stack. Rule 3.3.1 covers states with mag cap limits.
    3. Create a new Production Optics (low-modification optics) division: literally just Production with an optic and a slightly-increased weight differential to allow for the weight of the optic.
    4. Current Limited and Open don't change, except possibly a name change from Limited to Limited Irons.

    Overall, I think these proposals are a good idea, but a few comments:

    First, L10 is literally the most pointless division now that rule 3.3.1 exists. Get rid of it.
    Second, when talking about Limited Optics he didn't really expand on the idea, specifically how major & minor scoring would work. I think the best solution would be to make Limited Optics minor-only, and have Limited Irons allow both major & minor. Otherwise Limited Optics will be like Limited is now where minor is allowed but not really a serious option (2022 Limited Nationals results notwithstanding) and major is the only serious choice. This means that every current CO gun (almost certainly shooting 9mm minor) wouldn't be instantly at a disadvantage against someone putting an optic on their current .40 S&W Limited gun.

  2. #2
    While I appreciate the desire to welcome shooters with stock guns, by their second or third match most of those guns have been modified for some perceived advantage.

    All the momentum in USPSA is towards an optic -- CO, PCC and Open.

    Not suggesting this, but if everything was minor scoring and 140 or 170 mag length, you would hardly need divisions.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #3
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    I’d like to run my DIY ‘Macro’ (XL slide w Macro grip module) with fully loaded 17 round mags when I get back into USPSA next year (taking a break because: reasons). Either w irons or a dot.

    At my level (local) no one cares much about gear, but if Production is still 10 rounds, I’ll still shoot it w irons and reload a lot, I guess. Or put on a dot and not worry about it.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter CleverNickname's Avatar
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    If I were going to make a radical suggestion, I would propose that each division should be major-only or minor-only. Right now In Limited and Open, major is the only serious choice. (Does anyone other than luddites shoot Revolver, or b'gawd-the-1911-won-two-world-wars boomers shoot Single Stack?)

    Then get rid of 5-4-2 scoring for major and go to 5-3-1 for everything. The only reason 5-4-2 scoring exists is to compensate major for the extra recoil vs minor in divisions with both, but with a single power floor per division that wouldn't be needed anymore.

  5. #5
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CleverNickname View Post
    Ben Berry's most recent podcast notes that there are potential Production rule changes in January, and he has some thoughts about what should happen. To summarize what he said:

    He makes the observation that there should be divisions for three levels of firearm modification:
    Low-to-no modification - Production's original intent - nearly-stock guns shooting factory or factory-equivalent ammo.
    Medium modification - Limited - Most things allowed except optics and compensators.
    Very modified - Open - Almost no equipment rules, where custom reloaded ammo is almost required.

    But with rule changes over the years, Production is almost Limited Minor, and CO is almost Limited Minor Optics. They're not stock gun divisions anymore, and there really isn't any place for the shooter who doesn't want to modify their gun. When you take those three levels of modification and subdivide them into optics & non-optics, you get five divisions: Low-modification irons & optics, medium modification irons & optics, and high modification optics. There's not really an interest in a high-modification irons division.

    His proposals:
    1. CO becomes Limited Optics (medium-modification optics). Single action, magwells, etc are allowed as in Limited now.
    2. Production returns to its roots (low-modification irons).
    a. Instead of getting into minutiae about internal parts modifications / substitution, first have a trigger pull weight test like IPSC where there's a 5lb pull on the first DA shot & and no limit for subsequent SA shots, or 3lb pull for striker-fired. Second, allow a small (~2 oz) weight differential from whatever is the out-of-the-box weight for that gun model. If someone can make a change but still stay within the firearm weight limit and the trigger pull requirements, then the change probably isn't a big deal.
    b. Go back to requiring 2000 guns to be manufactured to get on the Production gun list, and get more accurate weights for guns from manufacturers. (He says that the current Production gun list is inaccurate.)
    c. Change to a 15-round capacity. The 10-round limit is due to the expired AWB and doesn't make sense anymore. If stage planning with <=10-round magazines is interesting, there's still Single Stack. Rule 3.3.1 covers states with mag cap limits.
    3. Create a new Production Optics (low-modification optics) division: literally just Production with an optic and a slightly-increased weight differential to allow for the weight of the optic.
    4. Current Limited and Open don't change, except possibly a name change from Limited to Limited Irons.

    Overall, I think these proposals are a good idea, but a few comments:

    First, L10 is literally the most pointless division now that rule 3.3.1 exists. Get rid of it.
    Second, when talking about Limited Optics he didn't really expand on the idea, specifically how major & minor scoring would work. I think the best solution would be to make Limited Optics minor-only, and have Limited Irons allow both major & minor. Otherwise Limited Optics will be like Limited is now where minor is allowed but not really a serious option (2022 Limited Nationals results notwithstanding) and major is the only serious choice. This means that every current CO gun (almost certainly shooting 9mm minor) wouldn't be instantly at a disadvantage against someone putting an optic on their current .40 S&W Limited gun.
    I like this, especially the trigger weight and 15 round mag capacity.

    High cap magazines are a PIA.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  6. #6
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    I'm a touch confused about the magazine capacity issue. Given the expanding number of states with 10 round limits, how does this work? When competitors from those states go elsewhere, they haven't really practiced planning with 15.

    The AWB is alive and well in some places. Should there be a Red state and Blue state division?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    I'm a touch confused about the magazine capacity issue. Given the expanding number of states with 10 round limits, how does this work? When competitors from those states go elsewhere, they haven't really practiced planning with 15.

    The AWB is alive and well in some places. Should there be a Red state and Blue state division?
    it isn't a huge deal. I shoot with a ton of CO/open NY guys who seem to have a storage area for hi caps mags when they cross the border and play down here. I also regularly switch between production and limited and don't notice any issues. Just remember to factor in your reload as part of your stage plan and not based on round count. When I go to NY, nobody is shooting production anyway.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Not suggesting this, but if everything was minor scoring and 140 or 170 mag length, you would hardly need divisions.
    That's an interesting concept that I've not thought about. It could be utilized to consolidate divisions for sure. Optic and Irons.

    But I have doubts that it would get any consideration amongst the board or membership. Interesting nonetheless...

  9. #9
    Site Supporter CleverNickname's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    I'm a touch confused about the magazine capacity issue. Given the expanding number of states with 10 round limits, how does this work? When competitors from those states go elsewhere, they haven't really practiced planning with 15.

    The AWB is alive and well in some places. Should there be a Red state and Blue state division?
    That's what rule 3.3.1 is for:

    Quote Originally Posted by USPSA rulebook rule 3.3.1
    In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.
    There's the reverse issue too, with competitors with states that don't have map capacity limits. If they go to shoot a match in a ban state then they have to reload at 10 when (presumably) they haven't practiced for that as much.

  10. #10
    I don't even know what Production roots are/were but if it remains that 47oz 9mm guns are legal in that division and, by extension, in Production Optics, I fail to see what's the point of these proposed rules changes. Low mod/no mod requirement is kinda pointless to me if the gun, off the shelf, is a purpose built race gun.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

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