Law Enforcement Ammo: America’s Largest Police Department Firepower

[DanTheWolfman]

First hand experience with 125gr .357 Sig Gold Dots…One round ricocheted off bad guy’s forehead, six or seven shots center mass, several went out his back. He lived to be able to serve a very lengthy federal prison sentence. Imagine the surprise when folks realized they’re beloved .357’s weren’t magic death rays…

I also had a 147gr HST round bounce off a windshield in a shooting. Handgun rounds are handgun rounds. They do funny things.

Dang...I just made the argument against old .38RNL sucking for many reasons, including skimming around the skull w headshots where cops thought BG was out for good only to wake up come back fighting fine I believe....my LE friend who just passed had many OIS including w crappy RNL he told the story in the interview I posted. Also I just finished reading Tales of a Stakeout Squad which was amazing and Cirillo was vehemently against them.

Re...well...I think the confirms the LE .357 Sig Gold Dot did actually over penetrate at times. The Personal Protection listed sku I believe penetrates far less expands more...but gel testing not on their site...5 vs 6 petal but VistaLE had their pics backwards.

Please don't break my trust w/ HST as 124 plus P is probably in most my guns and considering restocking w 147's for 4" and longer pistols since DrGkr carried/carries it.

[TC215]

Dang...I just made the argument against old .38RNL sucking for many reasons, including skimming around the skull w headshots where cops thought BG was out for good only to wake up come back fighting fine I believe....my LE friend who just passed had many OIS including w crappy RNL he told the story in the interview I posted. Also I just finished reading Tales of a Stakeout Squad which was amazing and Cirillo was vehemently against them.

Re...well...I think the confirms the LE .357 Sig Gold Dot did actually over penetrate at times. The Personal Protection listed sku I believe penetrates far less expands more...but gel testing not on their site...5 vs 6 petal but VistaLE had their pics backwards.

Please don't break my trust w/ HST as 124 plus P is probably in most my guns.

My agency investigates basically every OIS in the state, so I have a huge collection of data to pull from, and I don’t see a particular type/caliber of bullet that is better or worse than anything else (that’s obviously not a scientific study).

[HCM]

Wow.....you got some stories..ha!

Re 158's...as I may occasionally actually carry a .38.....do you agree the Softer Lead used by Underwood and Buffalo Bore should prove even better expansion better on BG's IF No Barrier penetration needed (accept if having to go through Shoulder or Arm first) than the harder lead older bullets? . If I could get underwood 125 Gold Dots (not XTP's they currently show) or 135+P Short Barreled Gold Dots (which I can't find...only the 125 +P) ....and Critical Defense 110+P probably will hit too low....So I may have to fork over the money for the UD or BB 158 LSWCHP's for carry. Any thoughts on those appreciated.

Our last duty load for .38 was the 135 grain+p - if I was carrying OK, framer, larger gun, I’d probably carry those, the Winchester equivalent, or some variety of the 158 grain plus P lead semi wadcutter hollow point.

Realistically, if I’m carrying a 38 it’s probably a J frame filled with wadcutters because it provides adequate penetration with better shot placement than hotter stuff out of an air weight snub.

[DanTheWolfman]

Our last duty load for .38 was the 135 grain+p - if I was carrying OK, framer, larger gun, I’d probably carry those, the Winchester equivalent, or some variety of the 158 grain plus P lead semi wadcutter hollow point.

Realistically, if I’m carrying a 38 it’s probably a J frame filled with wadcutters because it provides adequate penetration with better shot placement than hotter stuff out of an air weight snub.

Thanks.
This would be if I get a 3". Steel would get heavier stuff than aluminum version of same. I do have a few pud wadcutters I've kept....and cylinder enough of other stuff for snubs.

[DanTheWolfman]

Our last duty load for .38 was the 135 grain+p - if I was carrying OK, framer, larger gun, I’d probably carry those, the Winchester equivalent, or some variety of the 158 grain plus P lead semi wadcutter hollow point.

Realistically, if I’m carrying a 38 it’s probably a J frame filled with wadcutters because it provides adequate penetration with better shot placement than hotter stuff out of an air weight snub.

Thanks.
This would be if I get a 3". Steel would get heavier stuff than aluminum version of same. I do have a few pud wadcutters I've kept....and cylinder enough of other stuff for 2" none jframe 6shot snubs.

Only stuff decent in big box stores by me are 110 plus p critical defense....and have to check poa w each
Or maybe some kind of 125 golden saber ultimate defense. I should have gotten the 100rd box of 125 plus p rem sjhp I saw as decent choice but I didn't.

[revchuck38]

Re 158's...as I may occasionally actually carry a .38.....do you agree the Softer Lead used by Underwood and Buffalo Bore should prove even better expansion better on BG's IF No Barrier penetration needed (accept if having to go through Shoulder or Arm first) than the harder lead older bullets? . If I could get underwood 125 Gold Dots (not XTP's they currently show) or 135+P Short Barreled Gold Dots (which I can't find...only the 125 +P) ....and Critical Defense 110+P probably will hit too low....So I may have to fork over the money for the UD or BB 158 LSWCHP's for carry. Any thoughts on those appreciated.

Lead bullets in .38 Special and .357 Magnum loaded by the big 3 ammo makers (Federal, Remington, Winchester) have been swaged rather than cast, with the possible exception of their cowboy loads. My understanding is that the bullets used by Underwood and Buffalo Bore are cast, which implies that they're harder than the swaged bullets. The SWC-HPs that Remington and Winchester use expand reliably in the 850 fps range, which is what they typically run from a 4" barrel. Both the Underwood and Buffalo Bore rounds are loaded considerably hotter than that. The ammo that the NYPD used was SWC, not SWC-HP; nobody expected that stuff to expand.

[WDR]

Lead bullets in .38 Special and .357 Magnum loaded by the big 3 ammo makers (Federal, Remington, Winchester) have been swaged rather than cast, with the possible exception of their cowboy loads. My understanding is that the bullets used by Underwood and Buffalo Bore are cast, which implies that they're harder than the swaged bullets. The SWC-HPs that Remington and Winchester use expand reliably in the 850 fps range, which is what they typically run from a 4" barrel. Both the Underwood and Buffalo Bore rounds are loaded considerably hotter than that. The ammo that the NYPD used was SWC, not SWC-HP; nobody expected that stuff to expand.

FWIW, I believe Buffalo Bore is using this bullet in their .38 SWC-HP load, Rimrock says: "g/ch .38/.357 SWC-HP (BHN 5) this is a custom bullet made for Buffalo Bore Ammo Co." https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-c...-ammo-box.html

I'm not sure how a brinnell hardness of 5 compares to a swaged bullet from Win/Rem/Fed... but 5 is fairly soft. Buffalo Bore is also pushing them damn hard, for a .38 +P load, IMHO. The hollow point is pretty large on those, which probably helps expansion.

I've been very tempted to buy some of those bullets to use in my own loads, but they raised the price of them a lot in the last couple years, and I just can't justify the price they ask, which is in line with jacketed HP bullets now.

I believe Underwood is using a powdercoat cast SWC-HP... no idea where they are getting those though. Or how hard they are.

[revchuck38]

@WDR - Thanks! That is pretty darn soft, the gas check would keep down leading. I'm not surprised those bullets are expensive, casting a hollowpoint and putting a gas check on it is labor-intensive.

[DanTheWolfman]

FWIW, I believe Buffalo Bore is using this bullet in their .38 SWC-HP load, Rimrock says: "g/ch .38/.357 SWC-HP (BHN 5) this is a custom bullet made for Buffalo Bore Ammo Co." https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-c...-ammo-box.html

I'm not sure how a brinnell hardness of 5 compares to a swaged bullet from Win/Rem/Fed... but 5 is fairly soft. Buffalo Bore is also pushing them damn hard, for a .38 +P load, IMHO. The hollow point is pretty large on those, which probably helps expansion.

I've been very tempted to buy some of those bullets to use in my own loads, but they raised the price of them a lot in the last couple years, and I just can't justify the price they ask, which is in line with jacketed HP bullets now.

I believe Underwood is using a powdercoat cast SWC-HP... no idea where they are getting those though. Or how hard they are.

Yeah like $40 for 20 is hard to swallow ($50 for 110+ copper even more so) but check POA/PI and get a cylinder or two full I guess. I've seen various tests plus p and none...and even the none expand well. I knew I should have grabbed the 100 rd box of 125+p rem sjhp for like $62 I think that is a decent option. The BB+P is a Heavy powerful loud and heavy recoil load...but in a 3" Steel gun that may really optimize what .38 can do. Either standard pressure maybe better for light 2" snubs as still powerful for 158s.

As for all the boutique hard cast animal defense bullets...I'm not somewhere I have to worry about it but it sure looks like .40 (or 10mm) typical FMJ-fp is just fine for any of that.

Grab some ammo when you can I guess...I own a box of 10mm jhp and a box of .38 Super....never owned either caliber but when Ammogaddon "Mostly Peaceful" Riots started I thought Barter goods might come in handy .

[WDR]

@WDR - Thanks! That is pretty darn soft, the gas check would keep down leading. I'm not surprised those bullets are expensive, casting a hollowpoint and putting a gas check on it is labor-intensive.

I'm sure they are quality bullets, and they do indeed take a lot longer to cast and put the check on, vs a standard bullet. They used to be about $28/100, but they bumped the price up twice in the last year or so. I'm still tempted, because I think that particular bullet is more likely to expand from a snubby, even with less velocity than Buffalo Bore likes to push them at.