Here is an article on the ammo used by several large LE agencies. I was surprised at the number of agencies still using .40 S&W and having S&W 3rd generation autos as authorized pistols. The article is dated 12/20/22 but I'm not sure how up-to-date the info is.
The NYPD info is slightly outdated. The agency no longer offers the 5946 as an option for new officers and hasn’t for about six years. The officers currently carrying them are grandfathered but any new hires as of at least six years ago have a choice between the G19, the G17 but with 15 round magazines, or the P226. Supposedly the experiment of going to standard Glock triggers from the NY2 has also died on the vine and the NY2 triggers aren’t going anywhere. I can’t speak to the other agencies cited.
My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.
The article is inaccurate in several respects.Originally Posted by revchuck38
NYPD did authorize S&W 5946, and ones in service are grandfathered but they replaced it with the Glock 17 back in 2018 ?
In general, most of the places listed as authorizing smith, and Wesson, third generation autos, 40 Cal, pistols, and revolvers are simply grandfathering things that were previously authorized.
Speaking of which another false impression in the article is that LAPD is transitioning, all of their officers to the new FN pistol. LAPD firearms do not work like that. The new pistol is what will be issued to recruits going through the Academy. In-service LAPD officers will continue using their prior issued or personally owned agency approved duty weapons unless they wanna spend the money to buy the new FN pistol and the necessary support gear.
With regard to the Nassau County police department going from 9 to 40, outside the New York City boroughs of Brooklyn and queens the rest of Long Island consist of Nassau and Suffolk County’s, both of which have county police departments. I believe both are medium size police departments with somewhere around 2000 officers. Both departments went from revolvers to 9 mm pistols in the 1990s. Suffolk County went to the Glock 19, and Nassau County they went to DAO SIG 226/228s. For some reason, both of these departments decided to switch to 40 Cal within the last few years, just as everyone else was abandoning it.
The article talks about core jacket separations, although with modern bonded ammo or its equivalent, such as the Speer gold dot that is not an issue. Bonded duty ammo has been available since the mid-90s so there has to be another explanation.
There was a trend among police departments in the Northeast to go to larger calibers due to concerns about winter clothing effecting JHP performance, though, for most departments, this lead them to calibers like 45 gap and 45 ACP.
Maybe @Det1397 can shed some light on this ?
Last edited by HCM; 12-23-2022 at 10:11 AM.
@ HCM do larger calibers like .45 and .40 actually perform better against heavy winter clothing than 9mm?
I am not HCM, but living and working in an environment where heavy clothing can be encountered in the winter, this topic comes up often. Winter clothing layers may impair expansion, which often will increase penetration. It is less dependent on caliber than bullet design (and chance) in my opinion and experience. I have heard claims and stories about heavy clothing working as though it were some sort of body armor, preventing penetration, but if there is truth to that, I think it is uncommon. Perhaps with the lightest-in-caliber bullets, it could be a problem, but LE carries 124-147 in 9mm and such behavior is unlikely. The new plastic or elastomer filled bullets are an effort to better control expansion characteristics. ("On impact, the elastomer is forced into engineered internal fissures to start the expansion process, as opposed to conventional bullet designs, which rely on target media to enter the hollow-point and create expansion forces. The result is extremely uniform expansion, better separation of the petals, and more consistent penetration across barrier types, gun platforms and barrel lengths.") Or it may be a marketing gimmick.
In the end, there are almost always too many variables to conclude some given caliber or weight or whatever is going to "work better." As they say, it is the skill of the indigenous person and not the arrow that matters most.
HCM might have different experience and opinion and I look forward to his response.
FWIW, and fully appreciating the benefits of 9mm, I still like the .40 in the right gun and load. If permitted to use it in a LE capacity I might do so. I do feel a bonded 180gr .40 may offer more reliable performance if car bodies or glass are likely intermediate barriers.
Also not HCM, but the general idea was that if the HP was going to plug up and effectively turn into ball, then bigger ball is better.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
All the shootings I’ve seen have been in Warner weather.
I recall hearing this clothing plugging hollow points from @Mas years ago but bullet tech has come a long way since then.
The Alaska state troopers recently began transitioning to 9 mm pistols with red dots which leads me to think it’s not really a thing.
I do know there was a trend about 10 years ago were agencies in New England and the New York State police went to 45 caliber pistols in either ACP or gap. That trend seems to be reversing with some of those agencies like the MA state police going back to 9mm.
NE state police 5 years ago:
NYSP- 45 gap
CTSP - 45 ACP
RISP - 357 SIG
VT SP 40 S&W
NHSP - 45 ACP
MASP - 45 ACP
MESP - 45 ACP
PASP - 45 ACP
If shooting people in or through cars was a primary requirement then 40 still makes sense. I’d say 40 > 9 > 45 for cars..
Otherwise the increased recoil / time cost, increased financial cost and reduced capacity of a 40 don’t make sense vs 9mm with modern duty ammo.
Yep. The .40 is dead for law enforcement, except in a very few places, and that won't last, so it is an academic discussion. I have not run numbers, but it seems to me that LE incidents involving vehicles are on the increase. At least in my area.
On the other hand, everyone is grabbing the rifle right away these days if they can, so handgun caliber isn't foremost in their mind. The only time i carry a .40 these days is a few weeks a year in the mountains, where the threats could be either 2 or 4 legged and the risk of intermediate interference are greater. Even then, it is probably driven by nostalgia more than actual need.
This seems like an update w/ ammo to his previous article https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...lice-sidearms/
Re Detroit PD...there was news reports they really had trouble getting ammo during Ammogadon. There were tons of LE turn in Gen 1 M&P .40s hitting the market.
Are they still using that EFMJ bullet really? Reports of it's performance? I believe they had a couple incidents of actual over penetration on BGs ...I thought it was with issued .40 fmjfp at one point but perhaps it was with this ammo?
Personally, it seems like any good .40 180 jhp or the heavy penetrating 165 Gold Dot (18" Heavy Clothing...like the LE 125 gr Sig Load which had one case of actual BG Overpenetration shot in kitchen in Texas I believe almost hit officer on Rabbit duty in backyard I believe?) were and are as good as it gets for LE purposes...Super heavy clothing/8-Layer lol to Cars... I don't think anyone ever reported being unhappy with Terminal effect of the 165 gr gold dot or the LE 125 gr .357 Sig (other than perhaps the one cop mentioned).
Regarding Heavy Clothing....
Last edited by DanTheWolfman; 12-23-2022 at 01:33 PM.
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