Between Post-Notch and Dots

[Bergeron]

I love shooting competition, and everything it has offered to the community, and as I sit here, an iron sight pistol at my right and a dot gun at my left, I think that there's this alternate universe of what we've missed out on- the sights that could go beyond post-notch but not be dots.

The Marksmanship & Gun Handling thread about the "window" has been fabulous- it's the creative kind of thinking and applications that first made me aware of how much there is to learn here.

I was a 90's kid, back when dots meant a C-More bolted to the frame of a 2011- too big and delicate, but the possibilities of today could be in mind, if not in reality. There were sights that showed up, that even today I would 100% buy and try- if only to see- obsolete now- and a path we never explored.

Seems like every competition either ended up saying "post-notch only" or broke down into some kind of "limited: post-notch, open: dot" divisions, so there was never a home where these kind of sights could have their performance explored under stress-time pressure by talented shooters.

When I'm talking about these sights, I'm thinking about anything not post-notch, and also without batteries. I think the V-notch-Big-Dot was probably the most evident and popular version of this genre, or at least the one with the most general public awareness. There were also the small-ring aperture rears paired up with post fronts. From a distance, it seemed like talented people were unimpressed with either of them. A verdict of a dead end.

I've always been beyond curious about both JP's Double Ring and the DR Middlebrooks sighting systems. I only really read about them twice- once in a online "Gun Test" sort of e-magazine (I cannot for the life of me rediscover it), and another time in some now-defunct paper magazine. I remember the Double Ring being described as very quick but lacking in precision. The DR Middlebrooks had this giant rear ring with a transparent (I forget now if it was glass or plastic) filler- onto which an inner thin black circle was inscribed. The front was a suppressor height post with a fiber optic- the scheme was to center the red dot on the ring. The article author tried out two version of the DRM rear, one with a larger inner black circle- and it was apparently even faster than the small diameter inner black circle.

I ached to try this stuff out, but I just could not find the sights to buy and try. Right I was deciding to jump onto the red dot pistol lifestyle, back during the heyday of Glock Gen4, before the 19X, I really thought I was gonna try to go co-witness, with a DR Middlebrooks big rear and a JP Double Ring front, and shoot by lining all that jazz up with the dot. When I couldn't make it happen, once I had a back-up second RDS pistol, I went so far as to get a airsoft-knock-off RMR, and have a smith break out the glass and chop away everything but the outer ring/shroud, and to install it on the front of one of the slides as a "co-witness" iron, and to assure that a presentation of the pistol gave me the dot in the screen.

Of course, that didn't really last- I figured out consistency into my draw, I figured out that even custom holster makers were visibly off-put by the idea, and there's the big-ring ACSS RDS to put rest any residual dot-on-the-draw anxiety.

I don't really think that these sights, between post-notch and dot, have too much of anything to offer today beyond sheer novelty. I do think, however, that there could have been a 10-20 year "time in the sun" that these sights could have had, and I'm curious to hear if I'm the only one who might have ever had these thoughts.

To disclaim, if I had never thought about any of this, and spent the time-money-effort-thought into just shooting the guns I actually had, I'd be a better shot than I am today. C'est la vie, and all that.

[Jim Watson]

I never saw but one DR Middlebrooks rear globe sight in use. I thought it had potential.
But DR himself gave up on it and his later sights were shallow V "express" type.

[Darth_Uno]

I do think, however, that there could have been a 10-20 year "time in the sun" that these sights could have had, and I'm curious to hear if I'm the only one who might have ever had these thoughts.

To disclaim, if I had never thought about any of this, and spent the time-money-effort-thought into just shooting the guns I actually had, I'd be a better shot than I am today. C'est la vie, and all that.

I don’t know about their quality, but I thought the concept of the Dead Ringer Snake Eyes was…interesting, at least. Unfortunately a lot (not that there were a lot) of the ghost ring pistol sights came to market around the same time strides were being made towards red dot durability and mounting. I suspect that most of the buyers believed that this setup was somehow better/faster than notched sights, while avoiding the teething issues of mounting a dot. Red dots, obviously, have proven themselves by now. So the ghost ring sights just got left in the dust of progress. So, not a bad concept, just bad timing.

Plus it was never really documented if ghost ring pistol sights really were that much faster. With a proper front sight focus, I doubt it. You can find some obscure forum posts saying they are, but something tells me they weren’t out there with a shot timer. I’m skeptical that anyone who barely didn’t win a FAST coin would’ve beat the buzzer if they’d only had Snake Eyes.

[Bergeron]

Right! And the only "ghost ring" pistol rears that seemed big enough to me were the JP and the DRM- the others seemed waaay to small, and I've heard that, anyways, the rear sight is so much farther away on a pistol compared to a rifle, that no "ghosting" happens.

[JCN]

Right! And the only "ghost ring" pistol rears that seemed big enough to me were the JP and the DRM- the others seemed waaay to small, and I've heard that, anyways, the rear sight is so much farther away on a pistol compared to a rifle, that no "ghosting" happens.

Speaking as someone who decided to learn how to practically shoot rifle irons for the education and experimenting with ghost rings... the variability of pistol presentation would make a ghost ring prohibitive.

An iron kind of constraints targeting more than red dots. You can take red dot shots with confidence even when the dot is in the corner of the window. Taking an iron shot when the sight is off to the side is less confident. And you need a lot of experience and mental trigonometry to be able to calculate a hit with the post above rear. But not with a red dot.

A ghost ring is an even worse situation than traditional irons. Where you're narrowed into a smaller usable range other than perfect alignment.

I experimented with this on PCCs putting the rear ghost ring further forward and it was extremely unforgiving of off axis presentation.




I personally like XS Big Dots myself for speed but not necessarily for precision. I also played with SAS sights which I like, but because of the slide blocking out the target and tracking ability, it has some downsides.

[BN]

Seems like every competition either ended up saying "post-notch only" or broke down into some kind of "limited: post-notch, open: dot" divisions, so there was never a home where these kind of sights could have their performance explored under stress-time pressure by talented shooters.

I think there was a short period of time during the mid 1990s where these were legal in USPSA Limited and then they were outlawed in Limited and were only legal in Open. I think Todd Jarret used them for a while.

[Bergeron]

Neat! I wonder if he said or wrote anything about the experience?

[BN]

Neat! I wonder if he said or wrote anything about the experience?

https://uspsa.org/pages/champions

Limited started in 1993 so around there. I probably have the old "Front Sight" magazines in the basement if you want to go through them. I think we got all our information through gunzines back then.

[Bergeron]

As the cool kids used to joke, “Don’t tempt me with a good time”

I would happily buy a set of either (or both) the JP and the DRM, even build up a gun- just seeee what they’re like.

[BN]

Neat! I wonder if he said or wrote anything about the experience?

I don't think they were much of an advantage from what I remember I read back then.

I remember when I got my first fiber optic front sight. Now, there was a game changer.