See what you need to see training.

[G19Fan]

Oh sorry, what I was getting at was:

How much were you dry firing before SWYNTS?

I was trying to make the point that this is efficient practice and practicing something that helps a lot but is often neglected.

People criticize my progress saying it’s because I live in my parents’ basement, unemployed and dry firing 8 hours a day (I don’t, lol).

My point is that I’m so good at parsing out efficiency that I can help others get better quicker than they could or did on their own… without spending a lot more time than they previously did.

That’s my postulate. Haha.

I find if I have time it is way better shooting 50 rounds a day than 250 in one session a week

[Mike C]

Here are mine from the other day. @JCN as discussed I did my best to stick to the times. This is a new gun and holster for me. Gun used was Staccato C2 from appendix with an RMR. I'm still adapting to the trigger and need to work my splits down. I am a bit apprehensive to get on the trigger too soon because I am concerned about sending one off before I intend to with how light the trigger is. These are some of my better personal draw times from concealment on the 3yd line. I am actually starting to see flashes of red at some of the faster presentation speeds. Out of my USPSA competition setup I am seeing some red dot confirmation even at the .90 mark as of yesterday. I am certain my vision and index are improving at this point. I am now personally seeing the benefit of using actual race gear. For a long time I was opposed because it wasn't what I carried so I didn't see the use. In my short sightedness I have missed out on some great training value. Having faster access to your gun allows you to practice a faster draw, duh. Like wise breaking down the draw as JCN has mention and has mentioned in other posts by other users here also has its place in decreasing draw times and increasing efficiency as well.

3Y
1.07 draw .22 split
1.01 draw .19 split
1.02 draw .17 split
1.05 draw .22 split
1.02 draw .23 split
1.06 draw .20 split

7y
1.22 draw .27 Split
1.28 draw .29 Split
1.27 draw .29 Split
1.25 draw .33 Split
1.23 draw .29 Split
1.23 draw .28 Split

15y
1.40 draw .88 split
1.41 draw .39 split
1.41 draw .42 split
1.40 draw .33 split
1.41 draw .33 split
1.26 draw .40 split

3y

7y I am pretty sure I got an extra shot off on one of these strings but failed to record it, hence the extra hole. Some shots are obscured by tape.

15y Some shots are obscured by tape and I think I may have left some speed on the table because the group didn't open up as much as I had expected.

[JCN]

Here are mine from the other day. @JCN as discussed I did my best to stick to the times. This is a new gun and holster for me. Gun used was Staccato C2 from appendix with an RMR. I'm still adapting to the trigger and need to work my splits down. I am a bit apprehensive to get on the trigger too soon because I am concerned about sending one off before I intend to with how light the trigger is. These are some of my better personal draw times from concealment on the 3yd line. I am actually starting to see flashes of red at some of the faster presentation speeds. Out of my USPSA competition setup I am seeing some red dot confirmation even at the .90 mark as of yesterday. I am certain my vision and index are improving at this point. I am now personally seeing the benefit of using actual race gear. For a long time I was opposed because it wasn't what I carried so I didn't see the use. In my short sightedness I have missed out on some great training value. Having faster access to your gun allows you to practice a faster draw, duh. Like wise breaking down the draw as JCN has mention and has mentioned in other posts by other users here also has its place in decreasing draw times and increasing efficiency as well.

Mike asked me to post some of our off-line conversation highlights here.

1. Try and use most of the time without going over. Get more and more and more accurate within that time and vision parameter.
2. Can separate out the draw and split to see what needs work. Index at speed or recoil at split speed.

For example today, I wasn't feeling my draw and index (because new holster) but I really wanted to work recoil control and trigger timing at speed with vision.

So did doubles without a draw:



Going to make a suggestion: for people struggling with their sub-20 splits, just put an 8" circle up at 5 yards and do doubles from sights on target. Work on making the time primarily and hits secondarily until you can get the times down.

If you're splitting over 20 with a semiauto, you're bouncing the muzzle twice and need to train up to get it on single bounce. Most guns that's around 0.15-19s.

[JCN]

@Jamesa
@Mike C

I think where traditional training falls short is that they often fail to describe the difference between a drill and a test.

I think some traditional trainers fail to understand the difference.

Some tests are also drills like Bakersfield and SWYNTS.

Some tests are just tests (FAST, 10-10-10) and not meant to improve your ability.

USPSA classifiers are tests.

Practicing them won’t help much. You can use them to confirm your work program but not to train for improvement.

I have the benefit of knowing what feels off compared to previous. So I know my index and transitions are still a little off.

But for example, I ran a combo SWYNTS drill with targets at 15, 7 and 10 yards. And then 15 yard Micro poppers (6”).

My base 0.15-17 split is accurate enough I know it’s good enough for 7 and 10 yards.





It was good confirmation of the work I did yesterday, but I didn’t learn anything today.

[G19Fan]

After getting distracted by other random shooting fun restarted this today with the intention to primarily run this next 3 months (besides occasional 25 and 50 yard handgun shooting)

To start re-zeroed my training gun since the EPS carry got became loose (one reason I prefer 509T footprint). Zero confirmed by 10 rounds of Tula freestyle non timed at 25.

I was learning so much I ended up shooting 10 groups at each distance and then shot another round at 15 until I was out of ammo (last picture). Everything was shot with a P365XL Macro from AIWB Concealed.

I think my takeaways are that when I rush my index can be sloppy (which I know) and that will cause misses either on first shot or second shot. Also staying loose matters as some of my fastest 15 yard times didn't feel fast. I may do the same thing I did today running 15 yards 2x thene 7 yards once and 3 yards once.

[JCN]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ut-accurate%94

The above thread is the application of SWYNTS to another drill and how to scale pace and accuracy based off visual requirements.

Note that the RM DOTM doesn't train you how to improve, it's a test more than a drill.

EDIT: It might be interesting for you guys to try the DOTM and see how your vision works there.

Target and COF instructions here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_Tc...ibextid=Zxz2cZ

[JCN]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1478458

Excellent testimonial by @Mike C. and also for people to try an eyes closed NO vision drill.

3 yards, full silhouette target. 4" circle in center scoring zone.

Hands at sides. NO CONCEALMENT (so you don't shoot yourself).

Draw and do 3 yard SWYNTS pace (draw and double) and see where the state of your index is with NO VISION.

@ssb

Post up here. Should be interesting. 5x total for 10 shots so there's a grouping involved.

[ssb]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1478458

Excellent testimonial by @Mike C. and also for people to try an eyes closed NO vision drill.

3 yards, full silhouette target. 4" circle in center scoring zone.

Hands at sides. NO CONCEALMENT (so you don't shoot yourself).

Draw and do 3 yard SWYNTS pace (draw and double) and see where the state of your index is with NO VISION.

@ssb

Post up here. Should be interesting. 5x total for 10 shots so there's a grouping involved.

I’ll give it a shot but it may be a little bit. I try to shoot every other weekend and I just shot yesterday.

[JCN]

I’ll give it a shot but it may be a little bit. I try to shoot every other weekend and I just shot yesterday.

[JCN]

What you’ll need.
1. Holster
2. Gun
3. Sheets of white copy paper.
4. Black marker or 2” black pasters.
5. Tape measure.
6. Shot timer.

Step one:
Get a baseline. This is about figuring out your speed and mechanics, not about achieving some set standard.

It’s about figuring out what YOUR wobble baseline is at what speed.

String 1:
15 yards from a holster. Two shots in 2.0 seconds.
Dry fire it. Then live fire it. Then dry fire it. Etc until you’ve repeated for 10 shots.

You may throw out one flier. Use the ruler to measure the distance from the center. Look at the shot timer to get a sense of what your draw and split breakdown is. Write it on the paper and put it aside.

The goal is to train the dry vision to the live mechanics and Vice versa. Basically what you’re seeing in the quiet of dry and how that translates over to what lands on paper.


String 2:
7 yards from a holster. Two shots in 1.5 seconds.
Alternate dry and live until 10 shots elapsed.

Same scoring rules.


String 3:
3 yards from a holster. Two shots in 1.0 seconds total.

Work this one in dry 5x first. If can’t get the first shot off in dry by par, may extend time to 1.2 seconds for the drill.

But the point of this drill is to develop the index. Even if you don’t see the sights, you’ll be working on hitting using the general silhouette and feel of the gun and over time you’ll get fast enough to get a flash of red on target.


At the end of this, you’ll have a basic sense and data of what group size you can hit at what speed.

AND…. the distances scale. So if you had a 4” group at 15 yards at that pace, that’s what your 2” group pace at 7 is.

You’ll range find off the MOA scaling of the dot on target.

I’m a big fan of alternating dry and live runs to clean up sight picture and give them tools to develop on their own.

Updating this for some USPSA context.

String 1: 15 yard double on a 4” circle, par 1.8s (1.4+0.40)

String 2: 7 yard double on 4” circle, par 1.3s (1.2+0.20)

String 3: 5 yard double on 4” circle, par 1.0s (0.83+0.17)

@Clusterfrack
@JCS
@Moylan
@Mike C