See what you need to see training.

[JCN]

Since my wife is starting back on dry fire…
I set her up with the SWYNTS drill…

[Shoresy]

FWIW, Stoeger has scaled versions (1/2, 1/3, and 1/6 size) of competition targets for dryfire here.

It's not exactly what's prescribed upthread, but if you're heading down this path it may be of value. I hung a large piece of felt on the wall and put hook-side velcro on the targets so they can be arranged (and easily re-arranged) in mocked-up target arrays. If leaving dryfire targets up in a particular area is problematic for whatever reason, it's pretty easy to pull down and set back up again.

And yes, I need to get better about making dryfire a more routine thing. I'll jump in on the resolution.

[S Jenks]

Who is in? Would love for people to commit here for accountability and post early baseline runs.

In like Flynn!

[JCS]

I normally use scaled targets for my dry fire but I have been doing this at 7 yards with a paster and 2" dot and it would be very very difficult to do it at scale.

Day 2 of SWYNTS is done. Much better job today getting done before the pars. The 7 yard target is the most challenging for me because it makes me get out of turtle mode. I can still kind of turtle at 15 yards. 3 is pure index and hand speed.

[JCN]

@JCS as we discussed the goal is fixed fast speed and work up the vision and mechanics.

For people who aren’t making the pars, you can pick an intermediately fast speed (like 0.1-0.2 extra, not more) and work the mechanics plus vision and eventually bump the speed and then work the mechanics and vision further.

It’s literally a never ending process but huge fun to see improvements!

[BWT]

One thing I am seeing and I’m sure I’m probably not alone is a ton of wobble in the dot at extension.

I’m trying to figure out how to see less wobble in the dot. There will always be movement but let’s just call it a “buzzing” at full extension.

A few questions:

First - how firmly are you guys gripping the gun with your non dominant hand? Are we talking handshake, don’t crack an egg, like it’s holding onto someone’s wrist with a knife that’s trying to stab you (firmly).

I have heard it said “put your brain in your firing hand” and that is something I’m trying to do. Obviously there’s more grace for this in the 3 yard target than the 15 yard. I am trying to grab the gun aggressively to get out of the holster but then get it extended out loosely/lightly.

Second - training for split times - so I noticed our friend ViniVidiVici has split times down in the .14 and sub .18 range at 3 yards. My fastest are .18 and not in this drill usually I’m .20 and over.

Physically I’d like to be able to get the splits about 15-25% faster. You mentioned “riding the bounce” and JCN you created a video https://youtu.be/ga2ctytEDQA - is there an effective way to do this in dry?

I thought perhaps airsoft or something interactive to disturb the sights. Basically I need to practice firing, going through the recoil cycle, and then firing again as it lands at closer targets.

So this is really three questions. 1.) trigger speed - I’m interested to hear thoughts. I have some ideas about this and I can elaborate but I figured just ask 2.) recoil simulation necessary or unnecessary to learn the skills alluded to above 3.) if not is there a drill or method you’d recommend in dry in addition to what we’re doing here?

[Clusterfrack]

One thing I am seeing and I’m sure I’m probably not alone is a ton of wobble in the dot at extension.

I’m trying to figure out how to see less wobble in the dot. There will always be movement but let’s just call it a “buzzing” at full extension.

I was planning on posting about this, and am glad you did it first. 1) Some wobble is always ok. Don't obsess over a perfectly stable dot because that's impossible and not needed. 2) Relatively relaxed movements are more precise and generally faster, even though it really doesn't feel that way.

Try this for a drill: put a spot of tape on the wall in front of you, at exactly the height your gun should be aimed at for a neutral presentation. 1) Start with your hand dangling relaxed. 2) On the beep, touch the spot with your finger. 3) Work toward your fastest par time. This should feel relaxed, and you shouldn't be slamming your finger into the wall. Just touch it. 4) Now do it with 2 hands in an approximation of your grip. 5) Now do it with an unloaded gun. Don't poke a hole in your wall! You should feel the same relaxed eye-hand coordination as for the finger touch. Make sure you are breathing throughout. Holding breath creates tension.

First - how firmly are you guys gripping the gun with your non dominant hand? Are we talking handshake, don’t crack an egg, like it’s holding onto someone’s wrist with a knife that’s trying to stab you (firmly).

I have heard it said “put your brain in your firing hand” and that is something I’m trying to do. Obviously there’s more grace for this in the 3 yard target than the 15 yard. I am trying to grab the gun aggressively to get out of the holster but then get it extended out loosely/lightly.

That will depend on each person.

The main requirements of the grip are:
1) Gun should not slip within your hands, and hands should not come apart as the gun fires. Gripping harder than that is not required.
2) Grip should be neutral, meaning that the gun recoils straight up and down. Otherwise you'll be fighting to align the sights on subsequent shots.
3) A strong grip can be used to mask a crappy trigger pull. There is debate about whether this is a good way to teach shooters to get better. I prefer working on the trigger pull to make it straight.

Some people have massive grip strength, so to them a proper grip is "not very hard". Most adult males can grip "hard" with the support hand, and "not that hard" with the firing hand. Females have significantly lower grip strength for similar body size, yet 13 old girl GM's kick our asses at matches and slam 0.16 splits. Clearly a crush grip isn't required.

My grip and draw don't change with target distance. Same amount of "grace" or lack of it for any target, but less confirmation and adjustment of aim for easier targets.

Second - training for split times - so I noticed our friend ViniVidiVici has split times down in the .14 and sub .18 range at 3 yards. My fastest are .18 and not in this drill usually I’m .20 and over.

Physically I’d like to be able to get the splits about 15-25% faster. You mentioned “riding the bounce” and JCN you created a video - is there an effective way to do this in dry?

I thought perhaps airsoft or something interactive to disturb the sights. Basically I need to practice firing, going through the recoil cycle, and then firing again as it lands at closer targets.

Ben Stoeger has answered that question multiple times, and it's always the same. Airsoft may help to build trigger speed, but I don't know anyone who uses it to do what you're asking.

You need to use your muscles to return the gun to the target after the first shot, and that will change depending on the amount of recoil/flip. As you develop your grip, stance, and relaxation, the amount of force needed gets smaller, and it starts to feel like "just letting the recoil happen", or a bouncing "spring" as @JCN describes it. Part of it is elastic, but a critical part is muscular, and requires your brain to time the return of the gun and trigger press for the next shot. That's not the same for all guns and calibers and really not for airsoft.

So this is really three questions. 1.) trigger speed - I’m interested to hear thoughts. I have some ideas about this and I can elaborate but I figured just ask 2.) recoil simulation necessary or unnecessary to learn the skills alluded to above 3.) if not is there a drill or method you’d recommend in dry in addition to what we’re doing here?

If you can shoot <=0.20s pairs and keep them within 3" at 7 yds, that's really good. If you can do that, it's time to work on other stuff. Getting "faster" than that isn't necessarily helpful. 0.14 splits are sexy, but chasing that can be counterproductive. Faster splits may come as a side effect of working on more important aspects of your shooting. I can split most guns at 0.16 if I try, but 0.18-0.20 is much more relaxed for me, so that's what happens most of the time I'm shooting "predictively". (Of course if there's a classifier like Can You Count, faster splits matter.)

Here's a summary:

1. Let the gun recoil
2. Push the gun back down after it cycles. Note: this is a post-cycle push. Do not actively fight recoil as it happens.
3. Learn when and how much to push the gun down. This can burn a lot of ammo.
4. Use the proper amount of support grip so gun doesn’t move inside hands.
5. Muzzle rise is primarily reduced by locking the wrists, not grip pressure.
6. Muzzle dip as the slide returns needs to be minimized. A good grip with pressure underneath the trigger guard does this.

@JCN, want to add to this or offer a contrasting perspective to anything?

[JCN]

@BWT
@Clusterfrack

I’ll try and keep this relatively brief here.

Dot stability = muzzle stability.
Confirm with slow motion video.

You’re always trying to get as much dot stability as you need within the time allotted.
Splits don’t matter as much as being in sync with your gun, ammo and hands.

VIDEO YOUR SPLITS to see how many bounces and oscillations you’re having and work to reduce it.

Words are words. See it with video. Slow motion preferred. If people post them up, we can give specific feedback.

[BWT]

Here's a summary:

1. Let the gun recoil
2. Push the gun back down after it cycles. Note: this is a post-cycle push. Do not actively fight recoil as it happens.
3. Learn when and how much to push the gun down. This can burn a lot of ammo.
4. Use the proper amount of support grip so gun doesn’t move inside hands.
5. Muzzle rise is primarily reduced by locking the wrists, not grip pressure.
6. Muzzle dip as the slide returns needs to be minimized. A good grip with pressure underneath the trigger guard does this.

Thanks for the advice, sincerely.

Dot stability = muzzle stability.
Confirm with slow motion video.

Thanks.

ETA: Shortened up the quotes for brevity but thank you both!

[JCN]

This is a video I did a while ago.

Watch the muzzle stability on the small target (first two shots to a 3x5”).

At that pace, I have that much stability for that much vision and that much target.

Then for the body shots, I allow more wobble in the name of speed and I let the dot and muzzle wobble in the center 8” so I know I still got my shots.

Get as much feedback as you can personally and make small changes, then video again, then work some more and video some more….