I thought it was a pretty balanced and realistic assessment of where dots are, coming from the perspective of Mas’ experience. For me, I’m new to guns, so maybe that’s why going all in on dots in 2020 didn’t seem like a huge deal. That was an EXCELLENT grumpy old man impression, though, I do have to say.
Bad comparison. Rifles have a different mission for LE and military. A pistol is a SD tool. Always has been. Combat distances are greater than 50 yds. ACOC (advanced combat optical gunsight) shines as a medium distance engagement optic. What is that? I'm not sure but I would guess 50-300 yds.Originally Posted by msstate56
They are a fad just like optics on ARs are a fad. We’ll all be going back to irons on our rifles as soon as we figure that out
Maybe somebody in the military/LE could shed some light on this.
Last edited by Borderland; 12-13-2022 at 09:30 PM.
In the P-F basket of deplorables.
To be honest in a lot of way our m4s with acogs were personal defense weapons while our crew serves, light machine guns, 40mm launchers, and calling in fire were our actual offensive tools. I think people can do well with both irons or red dots, it just matters on what you deem to be an acceptable level of proficiency. I don't think approaching the situation as "irons will be fine in most SD scensrios" but instead we should frame it as "i am good enough with irons to handle all foreseeable defense situations." I have that same mindset talk when I discuss school response to active shooters. Can't hope for the best, hope isn't a strategy and Murphy is one sneak son of bitch.
In my experience, pistols are absolutely a primary weapon for most LE encounters. Sure we would like to have a carbine at all times, but it’s not feasible. LE “combat” distances are far less than 50 yards for most encounters.
Dot versus irons on a pistol is a topic that I suspect most shooters have strong feelings about, meaning they are strongly pro dot or pro irons and not ambivalent! Mas was smart to not take a position and let the battles rage.
As the saying goes, the best way to make a liberal into a conservative is to mug them. In my experience, the best way to turn an iron sight shooter into a passionate red dot shooter is to loan them a slide and optic for a month.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Bingo. A friend is a very high level guy in the firearms world but very much a traditionalist. Stock Glock all the way, thinks the SCD is an interesting concept but you don't mess with perfection, and dots are a gimmick. A year ago I persuaded him to borrow one of mine with a dot and give it a go. I still don't have it back.
I went full tilt into shooting from 2009 - 2017 and almost exclusively into pistols starting in ~2010. Dots were just starting to gain traction.
I took a break from 2017 - mid-2022 and rarely fired a weapon.
After diving back into the pool and going all-in on slide mounted optics on a pistol, dots feel like a cheat code at distances >~15 yards, on small or obscured targets and with calling shots. With hoser targets irons are still slightly faster for me, but I think that's mental regarding shooting the blur/streak.
Thinking back, I was mounting dots to pistols soon after I started shooting for the same reason - precision at distance. I shot a weekly match where the penultimate target was being able to sever a sewing needle from the target hanger at 50 ft. There were a lot of other small targets as well. You could use any gun, any caliber. I quickly figured out a frame mounted red dot on a .22 gave me the best chance to with that match and surprisingly hit that needle more than a few times.
Last edited by mizer67; 12-13-2022 at 10:07 PM.
I have two conversions in the last few months and am looking for my next mark!
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Dots are not uncommon in the LE world. I don't have mil experience but they have been around the special operations world for a few years, 4-5 probably
First, after watching the video I do think it was a balanced position given his experience, and I think he provided some good information. I have a problem though.
I’m not trying to be a jerk, but it does need to be said. An expert is an expert as long as they are an expert. When The technology, and the training to maximize that technology has advanced beyond the knowledge of the individual, they are no longer an expert.
The Wright brothers were rad. They would have augured a P-51. P-51 pilots in WWII were rad, but they’d crash an F-16. F-16 pilots were rad, but they’d probably cease to exist trying to fly whatever the newest and greatest plane is...
... unless they trained in the modern way.
The Garand was arguably the most advanced standard-issue rifle of WWII. I wouldn’t want to use one, or the general fundamental training given then when I’m working a rifle today. Is it crap? No. It’s just... outdated.
There are too many people looking to people who have decades of “expertise” in an old way of shooting as “experts” in a new way of shooting with new technology, and I think in this case the intellectual fallacy of appeal to authority applies.
Some of these people may have extensive training in the use of pistol optics. If so, then their training, coupled with their experience may be valid and should be respected.
Having taken training classes from, and providing training to, and shooting with some of the dudes who are doing really serious stuff with pistol optics I disagree with some things in the video. This video strikes me as someone who may have put a fair amount of time into a dot without learning what it really takes to match that learning curve and maximize performance (that was me at a time).
For one, tilting the head indicates that one is trying to “find the dot” with the eyes. This isn’t “Where’s Waldo”. The dot is there or it’s not and it comes into view based on feel because the eyes only see when the window is aligned. Moving the head while moving the hands complicates this and is absolutely counterproductive for consistently seeing the dot. Presentation with a dot is mostly bringing the hands to the right position in regards to the head so the eyes can see the dot. This is a kinesiology thing and when trained correctly will increase performance with the dot... and with iron sights.
As for cold killing batteries... I’ve had conversations with Alaska State Troopers. They work in some serious conditions. I personally tested optics and batteries to negative 20 degrees (as low as I could go) and brought them into a 90 degree environment. Enclosed emitters could be aimed using occluded aiming even after (if I remember correctly) 1.5 hours at -20 and throughout all the condensational frosting and fogging. An open emitter RMR functioned, but the frosting and fogging was so severe as to prevent utilization of the dot or iron sights for tens of minutes. I provided this information to them with the caveat that -20 isn’t as low as they can experience - so I can’t and I won’t speak to that because it’s out of my lane.
How many people will watch that video and parrot that “cold kills batteries” having never actually tested them... after hearing it from a person who hasn’t validated that he ever tested them?
Overall, it was a balanced video, but it struck me as a balanced video of a person who has used optics but isn’t up to date with them and hasn’t received training from those who are. Maybe I’m wrong.
Last edited by SoCalDep; 12-14-2022 at 12:00 AM.
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