A300 Ultima Patrol

[thatguybryan]

Can’t wait to see some of these in the wild. Really tempted to pre order.

[Centerfire]

The important difference between the M4 ARGO system and the gas setup on the 1301 and A300 (the A300 piston location and tuning used the 1301 system as a template) is the gas hole location. The ARGO system is incredibly close to the chamber, meaning changing the barrel length/dwell time has some wiggle room for tuning with port size and springs; the 1301 and A300 Patrol gas holes are MUCH further down the barrel, meaning the dwell time and backpressure you have to play with by chopping the barrel is DRASTICALLY different. To get a barrel short enough to be worth a change, we'd have to move the gas hole location, which means a redesign of the entire system between the bolt and the gas hole for anything to work (op rod, gas piston, piston stop, springs, etc). That is not an inexpensive development program, and those reduced operating windows mean we'll eat into our broad spectrum reliability which is one of the platform's core features. And all this to compete in an extremely small niche market already served by a solid product that's under our corporate umbrella.

It'd be a really neat gun at the end of the day, but the juice:squeeze ratio doesn't really shake out.

As for the Patrol forends; we only have them coded as spare parts right now, not for resale. There's no other gun it'll fit on right now so there's no reason to have it out there just yet. It'll be available for resale when it makes sense to do so.

If a user was willing to accept a narrow range of ammunition, high brass 00 for example, would it be possible to make the system function with a 14" barrel and larger gas port?

[nalesq]

Looks like it’s now available for purchase:

https://www.bereli.com/beretta-a300-...-tube-shotgun/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Cory]

If a user was willing to accept a narrow range of ammunition, high brass 00 for example, would it be possible to make the system function with a 14" barrel and larger gas port?

Pretty sure that's been answered as best as it can be. Deviation that far from stock throws any reliability testing they've done out the window.

With my 1301, Aridus ASA, and magpul stock it's pretty damn compact. Sitting in my single cab 90s F150 I can shoulder and point straight forward without hitting the windsheild. For a non-SBS thats absurd. And I dig it. I don't know if the UP will be that compact, but it seems like it's in the ball park.

Personally, I don't have a use case for an SBS or anything shorter than my 1301T. I'm curious why the desire? If it's just fun/because I can that works. I wonder how much velocity you loose going shorter, and what it means for pattern performance.

[LHS]

Personally, I don't have a use case for an SBS or anything shorter than my 1301T. I'm curious why the desire? If it's just fun/because I can that works. I wonder how much velocity you loose going shorter, and what it means for pattern performance.

It's a matter of balance. SBSs are just by nature less muzzle-heavy than non-SBSs of the same type. It makes them handier, and I've found smaller-statured students have a much easier time manipulating the gun over longer periods.

Velocity is very much individual load dependent, but as far as I know you don't lose a whole lot if any with most modern shells out of a 14" vs. an 18" bbl. Going down to 12" might change things a bit. It's something I ought to do some testing on with a chrono some day.

As for pattern size, it doesn't make much difference at all in my experience. It's much more about load, barrel quality, barrel contour (including choke), etc. The old myth about short barrels being of wider pattern likely comes from 'sawed offs' that remove any choke and have burrs at the muzzle to catch pellets/wads.

[Cory]

It's a matter of balance. SBSs are just by nature less muzzle-heavy than non-SBSs of the same type. It makes them handier, and I've found smaller-statured students have a much easier time manipulating the gun over longer periods.

Velocity is very much individual load dependent, but as far as I know you don't lose a whole lot if any with most modern shells out of a 14" vs. an 18" bbl. Going down to 12" might change things a bit. It's something I ought to do some testing on with a chrono some day.

As for pattern size, it doesn't make much difference at all in my experience. It's much more about load, barrel quality, barrel contour (including choke), etc. The old myth about short barrels being of wider pattern likely comes from 'sawed offs' that remove any choke and have burrs at the muzzle to catch pellets/wads.

I appreciate the info, man.

I never really thought about the balance aspect. Totally makes sense.

[Centerfire]

Pretty sure that's been answered as best as it can be. Deviation that far from stock throws any reliability testing they've done out the window.

With my 1301, Aridus ASA, and magpul stock it's pretty damn compact. Sitting in my single cab 90s F150 I can shoulder and point straight forward without hitting the windsheild. For a non-SBS thats absurd. And I dig it. I don't know if the UP will be that compact, but it seems like it's in the ball park.

Personally, I don't have a use case for an SBS or anything shorter than my 1301T. I'm curious why the desire? If it's just fun/because I can that works. I wonder how much velocity you loose going shorter, and what it means for pattern performance.

I believe my question is more nuanced than what has been discussed.

[RevolverRob]

I believe my question is more nuanced than what has been discussed.

Is it?

The answer is: Beretta isn't going to bother figuring it all out - because they haven't found a balance that makes it work. The implicit statement there is that it has been tried. And it's even been acknowledged on an individual redneck level by a former Beretta Rep.

Non-Beretta individuals who have tried to make SBS 1301s had to hog out the gas port and still had reliability issues. It's been talked about in the 1301T Mega Thread and over on Enos' forum.

In other words you can give it a shot with your own gun and dime. But Beretta isn't planning on it and won't be advising you on how to do it. I think that's been pretty clear thus far.

And the answer to your nuanced question is; You can make anything work with enough time and money. But the simple solution(s) are not likely to produce a reliable result.

[Ben_G]

If a user was willing to accept a narrow range of ammunition, high brass 00 for example, would it be possible to make the system function with a 14" barrel and larger gas port?

Short version, not practically.

Long version, I believe to get that barrel length to be anything but a single shot or blowback operated it would require shifting the piston/gas hole back a few inches. That means redesigning everything between the gas hole and the bolt, which takes a serious amount of engineering, testing, and industrialization.

See again juice:squeeze reference. You're talking about a very small market, and our engineers aren't sitting around with nothing to do. Any program they are working on means there's another they're not and as I've alluded to, there's a lot we're working on. Worth noting: our shotgun engineering team are the same guys for the full range of Beretta shotguns; so the discussion isn't splitting hairs with 'what color tac model are we working on next' or 'do we monkey around trying to get an SBS to work again' (it has been tried before). It's "okay, what's next for A300, A400, 1301, 686, 687, 694, DT11, SL3, Ultraleggero, etc for new Waterfowl, Sporting, and Multigun comp, distributor special makes, etc variants?" .

Big business product development is a constant balancing game of figuring out not a good answer but the best answer in a pool of great ones, and doing all this trying to hit a moving target 1-4 years out. From what I've seen, the math doesn't even land a SBS 1301T in the top 50 items in the queue, right now or for the foreseeable future.

[TCinVA]

With my 1301, Aridus ASA, and magpul stock it's pretty damn compact.

It should be noted that the Beretta 1301 Tactical with the Aridus SGA adapter and stock on it is shorter than the factory Benelli M4 SBS.