Shotgun vs. AR w/10 rd Mags

[Clusterfrack]

...I bought a Shockwave S at the 11th hour before Oregon’s horrific gun and mag ban went into effect. I wanted a compact truck and camp gun to replace my AR pistol. (What do we think about AR w/10 rd mags vs a shotgun?)
[/IMG]

[Totem Polar]

(What do we think about AR w/10 rd mags vs a shotgun?)

This is a very interesting question, and probably worth its own thread.

I can say that if my own choice was an M4 with 10-round mags or a 1301T, for home or camp defense, I’d take the 1301. And this is coming from a guy who has a Daniel Defense, and no 1301. Considering what we’ve heard here about multiple rounds per dude being SOP from people who stacked bodies with M4s for a living, it’s worth mulling over.

But I digress.

[BehindBlueI's]

(What do we think about AR w/10 rd mags vs a shotgun?)

Personally, I would not use a box magazine fed shotgun for serious work due to reliability concerns with shell deformation. If I was dead set on box magazine fed I'd go AR every time.

If I didn't care so much about internal magazine vs box magazine, there's no wrong choice. We use 55gr JSP and in meat shots without significant intervening barriers it has performed very well. We use FC for shotguns and it also performs very well. I will say shotguns have resulted in more bang-flops whereas ARs have resulted in more bang-flop-twitch for awhiles. Guys still dead, his body just hasn't figuret it out quite yet. Autopsy attendance and crime scene observation often makes me think of a melon baller with the AR, even when striking hands/forearms and then continuing in to the body. They have not faired as well vs auto glass and then into people, often fragmenting too much after the glass strike to maintain sufficient weight when fired from full 16.5" and up barrels. Heavier 5.56 will stand up to glass better but may not be as robust in meat damage.

When you get into super shorty barrels, I would start leaning shotgun heavier due to both terminal ballistics and noise/fireworks display concerns.

[Caballoflaco]

@Clusterfrack

Why specifically a .308 and not .300BO? Power and capacity wise it sits right in between a .30-30 lever gun and an M1 carbine. Way faster and easier to reload than the .30-30 with 4 more rounds on board and a bit more oomph than the carbine with only a 5 round deficit in capacity. I’ve shot enough deer with .30-30 and 7.62x39 to be perfectly comfortable with an intermediate .30 cal with a ten round mag vs a shotgun, and I would prefer the rifle as a woods/camp gun for barrier penetration (a lot of our forests are new growth with lots of small trees) and range in the Grizzlyless southeast.

[DanTheWolfman]

Personally, I would not use a box magazine fed shotgun for serious work due to reliability concerns with shell deformation. If I was dead set on box magazine fed I'd go AR every time.

If I didn't care so much about internal magazine vs box magazine, there's no wrong choice. We use 55gr JSP and in meat shots without significant intervening barriers it has performed very well. We use FC for shotguns and it also performs very well. I will say shotguns have resulted in more bang-flops whereas ARs have resulted in more bang-flop-twitch for awhiles. Guys still dead, his body just hasn't figuret it out quite yet. Autopsy attendance and crime scene observation often makes me think of a melon baller with the AR, even when striking hands/forearms and then continuing in to the body. They have not faired as well vs auto glass and then into people, often fragmenting too much after the glass strike to maintain sufficient weight when fired from full 16.5" and up barrels. Heavier 5.56 will stand up to glass better but may not be as robust in meat damage.

When you get into super shorty barrels, I would start leaning shotgun heavier due to both terminal ballistics and noise/fireworks display concerns.

I think his question was given pending Unconstitutionality in Oregon, for Truck Gun, Shockwave or AR w/ 10 rd mag limits.

I was the one assuming 5 rd Shotgun Box mags are ok but probably not 10 rd ones.

I am a pistol ballistics junkie, and need to read even more on rifle terminal ballistics and barrier penetration though I have read up. For HD I have switched to shotgun...

But for OTHERS because I would never own an evil black assaultive weapon... that Full size AR first half of mag loaded with say 75-77gr JHP that acts like a Gold Dot/pistol bullet expands into a ball is that that much better than 55 gr 193? What about cheap 75/77 gr fmj tula? For HD and say 100 yard engagements? IE what better on the cheap?

Cheers

[Clusterfrack]

Personally, I would not use a box magazine fed shotgun for serious work due to reliability concerns with shell deformation. If I was dead set on box magazine fed I'd go AR every time.

If I didn't care so much about internal magazine vs box magazine, there's no wrong choice. We use 55gr JSP and in meat shots without significant intervening barriers it has performed very well. We use FC for shotguns and it also performs very well. I will say shotguns have resulted in more bang-flops whereas ARs have resulted in more bang-flop-twitch for awhiles. Guys still dead, his body just hasn't figuret it out quite yet. Autopsy attendance and crime scene observation often makes me think of a melon baller with the AR, even when striking hands/forearms and then continuing in to the body. They have not faired as well vs auto glass and then into people, often fragmenting too much after the glass strike to maintain sufficient weight when fired from full 16.5" and up barrels. Heavier 5.56 will stand up to glass better but may not be as robust in meat damage.

When you get into super shorty barrels, I would start leaning shotgun heavier due to both terminal ballistics and noise/fireworks display concerns.

That makes good sense, and I agree 100% about mag-fed SGs. I still keep an AR for home defense, but if the mag ban law is allowed I can't bring it off property with anything but a 10rd mag. I like a short, handy gun for 4 wheeling and backcountry camping that can deal with a vehicular threat (which happened to me once).

If the Shockwave project pans out, that seems like a better bet than my 300BLK pistol with 10 rd mags.

[Clusterfrack]

@Clusterfrack

Why specifically a .308 and not .300BO? Power and capacity wise it sits right in between a .30-30 lever gun and an M1 carbine. Way faster and easier to reload than the .30-30 with 4 more rounds on board and a bit more oomph than the carbine with only a 5 round deficit in capacity. I’ve shot enough deer with .30-30 and 7.62x39 to be perfectly comfortable with an intermediate .30 cal with a ten round mag vs a shotgun, and I would prefer the rifle as a woods/camp gun for barrier penetration (a lot of our forests are new growth with lots of small trees) and range in the Grizzlyless southeast.

I think it was @GJM who raised the option of a .308. I strongly prefer light, short 'long guns', so I don't own any .308 autos and don't plan to. Good point about brush. I would think a slug might do very well for that.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think his question was given pending Unconstitutionality in Oregon, for Truck Gun, Shockwave or AR w/ 10 rd mag limits.

I was the one assuming 5 rd Shotgun Box mags are ok but probably not 10 rd ones.

I am a pistol ballistics junkie, and need to read even more on rifle terminal ballistics and barrier penetration though I have read up. For HD I have switched to shotgun...

But for OTHERS because I would never own an evil black assaultive weapon... that Full size AR first half of mag loaded with say 75-77gr JHP that acts like a Gold Dot/pistol bullet expands into a ball is that that much better than 55 gr 193? What about cheap 75/77 gr fmj tula? For HD and say 100 yard engagements? IE what better on the cheap?

Cheers

Clear on why mag limit concerns exist.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking with a first half the mag loaded. Are you saying only loading mag to half capacity or doing some sort of dual loads in a magazine? If the first, downloading to increase reliability is a thing but typically only -1 or -2 rounds in a 30 round mag. If the second, don't do that. Pick a load and stick with it. 77gr and 55gr have different flight paths and ARs shoot in an arc. You want to know your hold at various distances from double arms length to whatever you're max reasonable engagement is.

55gr with sufficient velocity expands and tumbles, making a general mess and stretching tissue fast enough to tear it, so "remote wounding" occurs, meaning tissue that isn't physically touched is still damaged. If heavy loads are better largely depends on context. We use 55gr primarly for accuracy and short range meat shot results. Our patrol rifle program started with old DRMO guns and the slow twist rate meant light bullets were more accurate. If buying your own gun, that's not a limit. There are plenty of good options, but honestly there's no one size fits all answer given that AR barrel lengths, twist rates, etc. vary so much from one to another.

Cheap ammo at sufficient velocity still works just fine, but is *generally* going to fragment sooner and more completely and will struggle with barriers more, but even there it's tough to make blanket statements. Rifles are, IMO, much more variable than handguns but tend to work just fine even in less ideal situations.

[BehindBlueI's]

As an engineer who's experience is nearing the three-decade mark, and who used to routinely work with signal-to-noise ratios, I can say we want the signal-to-noise ratio to be high.

Edited, thanks. I could blame jet lag, but I think I'll just say derp instead.

[Guerrero]

Edited, thanks. I could blame jet lag, but I think I'll just say derp instead.

Nothin' but love for you, BBI.