It’s Time to Start Rethinking Who Educates Our Kids

[DDTSGM]

Sorry Dan, I’m still struggling with your position and must be misunderstanding it. Tell me if this encapsulates what you think:

Parents are free to home school their kids or remove them from the public school system and put them in private school. However, parents should not be allowed a mechanism to redirect their tax dollars from gladiator academies and send their kid to a higher performing schools because it would disadvantage the aspiring Jeffrey Dalmers? Would this not close the door on the few kids with a small chance by chaining them to the majority of kids with no chance? It also seems to dramatically increase the power of my wealth by essentially excluding the poors from any educational mobility.

If this is indeed your position, I’m actually all for it. I’m primarily responsible for my kid and I’m inclined to support policies that magnify the impact of my wealth to give him the best advantage possible in life. What you describe sounds fine to me as it simply increases the number of bodies that my son must step over rather than compete against.

Well, aside from the hyperbole - no. As I said, my goal would be to provide EQUAL educational opportunities for all. I know that is an ideal which, in practice, will be nearly impossible to accomplish. However, my viewpoint is that vouchers will ensure that goal is never achieved.

In response to your statement regarding redirecting your tax dollars, I think that's a slippery slope. What about the folks who never had kids, do they get to opt out? What about folks who have already raised their kids, do they get to opt out after their kids graduate? What about those among us who are pacifists, the Quakers, the Amish, the Mennonites, do they get to opt out of the defense portion of their taxes? I see problems with that mindset. We live in a society, we are all intertwined, it doesn't work if everyone just cares about themselves, or those like them. We're seeing that now.

Regarding gladiator academies, I'm sure there is a small percentage of schools that might be true of, but that isn't the norm. I also question if the public school that serves your neighborhood would be accurately described in that way.

My wife described herself as an itinerate teacher as she had students in every school in our district. As a result, she had a good idea of which elementary schools had the best staff. When it came time to send our girls to school, it was to the second poorest school in the district. Why? because of the principal and the staff. As we attended various school activities with the other parents it was obvious that many were struggling, but the folks who were attending PTO and school programs cared about their kids. I think a voucher system would work against them for all the reasons I've previously listed.

[JTQ]

My wife described herself as an itinerate teacher as she had students in every school in our district. As a result, she had a good idea of which elementary schools had the best staff. When it came time to send our girls to school, it was to the second poorest school in the district. Why? because of the principal and the staff. As we attended various school activities with the other parents it was obvious that many were struggling, but the folks who were attending PTO and school programs cared about their kids. I think a voucher system would work against them for all the reasons I've previously listed.

Though apparently you had a choice of schools within a district, and chose that one because of the administration and staff. Perfectly reasonable, and understandable.

There are many places where there isn't that opportunity. If you live on street X, you go to this school. A voucher program would give families similar choice options that you have.

[RoyGBiv]

Though apparently you had a choice of schools within a district, and chose that one because of the administration and staff. Perfectly reasonable, and understandable.

There are many places where there isn't that opportunity. If you live on street X, you go to this school. A voucher program would give families similar choice options that you have.

When I was a kid in NYC, you were assigned to a school. End of story.

We left NC because Wake County decided that "Economic Balancing" was a great way around the NC Court decision that ended "Race Balancing" in schools . Instead of attending the schools in the neighborhood, my kids could be randomly assigned to sit on a bus for 90 minutes each way across town for some sort of social justice goal that we were not having any part of. I got bused to JHS and HS, it sucked massively and would eat fire before I put my kids through that.

Here in our TX ISD, if you want to attend a school that's not your assigned school, you apply and if there is space they say yes.

[Sensei]

I believe that the whole point of vouchers is to promote greater equality through competition as opposed to locking parents into an educational cast system were only the rich have access to high performing schools.

[TGS]

I believe that the whole point of vouchers is to promote greater equality through competition as opposed to locking parents into an educational cast system were only the rich have access to high performing schools.

"Equality through competition".

There's got to be a great Hunger Games meme for this motto.

[Sensei]

Not the Hunger Games but accurate nonetheless.



The whole idea of vouchers is to inject an element of capitalism into one of the most socialized aspects of our society - effectively making public schools compete or lose students.

[DDTSGM]

I believe that the whole point of vouchers is to promote greater equality through competition as opposed to locking parents into an educational cast system were only the rich have access to high performing schools.

In every discussion regarding school vouchers that I've listened to, whether it be amongst folks who have been/are school board members, guys I work with BS'n in the lunchroom, or my Sunday school class, I walk away with the feeling that what you've posited above isn't the real reasoning, it actually boils down to folks wanting to have more money.

As I said, the goal ought to be to destroy the educational caste system and make it EQUAL for all. Vouchers don't do that. Ultimately, you'll end up with a bunch of poor kids whose parents either aren't present, too absorbed in working menial jobs to see to their kids' education, or just dumbasses, attending a subpar school. Meanwhile voucher kids are going to the schools are either high performing because they get equipment/staffing the shitholes don't, or to the school with the sports team that the parents think has the best team(s) to get their kid a scholarship/pro contract, etc.

Not the Hunger Games but accurate nonetheless.



The whole idea of vouchers is to inject an element of capitalism into one of the most socialized aspects of our society - effectively making public schools compete or lose students.

Addressed above.

BTW - your cartoon is incorrect. In the bottom right panel your poorer get wealthier and the richies stay the same, meaning the poorer Americans are closing the gap with the richies. Ain't going to happen if the richies can help it.

[Bergeron]

Regarding gladiator academies, I'm sure there is a small percentage of schools that might be true of, but that isn't the norm. I also question if the public school that serves your neighborhood would be accurately described in that way.

I must respectfully and intensely disagree. While I did find my rural public high school education to be a faaaar less violent place than my urban public middle school education, I have continuously found throughout every possible situation that the rate and acceptance of violence directed at students, almost always from students, exists no where else like it does in education. I still had to hurt a couple of my fellow students in my otherwise peaceful and community-oriented high school.

It was deeply maddening to be able to be relaxed and at ease from active and continuous threats and actions of violence against my person literally everywhere except at school. And the sure-fire, guaranteed best way to attract that violence (and not the only way, either!) was to be eagerly and happily devoted to act and process of gaining an education. Sit in the front row, raise your hand every time a question is asked, do the homework without fail, intentionally obey the classroom rules, engage with the teachers when they're looking for it, use your manners, and be happy about the opportunity to continue to do the grinding work to raise yourself to the future you want and watch what happens. And watch your back.

If this sounds doubtful- as glorious as the college experience is- ask a college coed and the separately ask a working woman about their perception of the threat of violence on campus, and then at the workplace.

There's always going to be the shit-and-fuck heads who will wallow in their ignorance, incompetence, and inability. If that was all that happened, it would be regrettable and not tragic. But these are the exact ones who will also go out of their way to keep the rest of class as close as possible to their failures. That bottom misery loves company, and attempts to stick itself to anyone who seems to be going actively away from its pathetic fate.

[AMC]

In every discussion regarding school vouchers that I've listened to, whether it be amongst folks who have been/are school board members, guys I work with BS'n in the lunchroom, or my Sunday school class, I walk away with the feeling that what you've posited above isn't the real reasoning, it actually boils down to folks wanting to have more money.

As I said, the goal ought to be to destroy the educational caste system and make it EQUAL for all. Vouchers don't do that. Ultimately, you'll end up with a bunch of poor kids whose parents either aren't present, too absorbed in working menial jobs to see to their kids' education, or just dumbasses, attending a subpar school. Meanwhile voucher kids are going to the schools are either high performing because they get equipment/staffing the shitholes don't, or to the school with the sports team that the parents think has the best team(s) to get their kid a scholarship/pro contract, etc.



Addressed above.

BTW - your cartoon is incorrect. In the bottom right panel your poorer get wealthier and the richies stay the same, meaning the poorer Americans are closing the gap with the richies. Ain't going to happen if the richies can help it.

Ultimately NOTHING that any school does is going to make up for a lack of involved parents who value education. This is the dirty secret of the education achievement gap that no one wants to say. The Equality you're hoping for is not achievable without a type of government intervention that would likely result in a lot of people shooting at each other. The only path to removing the barriers to educational (and life) achievement for those less fortunate is to first stop incentivizing the creation of those conditions. Our society can either incentivize and promote civic virtues (such as intact families) or continue to do what we've been doing for almost 60 years, which is incentivize disfunction. We've seen where this leads. No amount of money is going to change that. Of course, one side of this cultural debate is, as the saying goes, "immune to feedback from reality". Because good intentions are all that matter.

[Sensei]

I’m just going to come out and say it - the notion of “equality” in our public education system is simply horseshit. Not only is it an unachievable ideal, it isn’t even desirable. Someone is always going to win the spelling bee and it doesn’t bother me one bit that it probably won’t be my kid, or that the winner probably has a Tiger Mom driving them to succeed. The fact that there is inequality and losers is what drives me to do my job; it drives my kid to do his best. Without inequality, there can be in incentives for improvement. To the extent that inequality becomes perverse and extreme, it is almost always due to the type of government meddling that is being proposed to create the Equality Unicorns.

Equality is foremost referenced in the Constitution’s 14th Amendment as equal protection under the law. That is a far cry from attempting to control individual behavior to create the proverbial “level playing field” that is never going to exist. It fundamentally undermines a free society and is, quite frankly, a surprising philosophical position on a gun forum.