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Thread: Massad Ayoob: The necessity of high capacity magazines.

  1. #21
    Member JonInWA's Avatar
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    Guys, I'm a tad skeptical here. Let's see, we're starting off with Mas modeling and advertising the latest Wilson high-capacity pistol, wearing a Wilson Combat logo'd outfit. Not that Mas is a bad guy, or Wilson makes bad guns-quite the opposite in both cases, but here I think we need to contextualize a bit.

    As a former reserve LEO, and presumably still with organizational and industry connections and research resources, it would have been nice if Ayoob had provided some more statistical back up for the assertations made, such as multiple assailant crimes and assaults, body armored assailants, tactically astute assailants, and events requiring high round counts for resolution (and that's assuming the rounds were in fact impacting on the assailant).

    I have, use, enjoy and appreciate pistols that have magazines with a higher capacity than 10 rounds. But I've also asserted, and continue to assert that capacity per se is one of my lowest criteria for platform selection in most circumstances, other than having to charge Hill 301 with a dedicated infantry outfit (and artillery and air support assets on call). I'm much more critically concerned with how well I index with, shoot with, and the inherent ergonomic features of a platform.

    In my opinion, based on my personal and anecdotal experience the key difference between a magazine-fed semiautomatic pistol and a revolver has less to do with capacity than with the ability to perform fast and effective reloads when necessary under stressful situations inhibiting control and movement.

    I'm not pleased with most of the non-logic fueling anti-gun and anti-gun/restrictive gun stances. In many, if not most cases it's fueled by emotionalism as opposed to logic and facts, and it has the effect of more likely penalizing the "good guy" as opposed to the feral criminal elements.

    I don't feel underarmed with a 7 or 8 shot 1911, particularly with backup magazines. I don't feel underarmed with a 10 shot .40 High Power, with backup magazines. I don't feel underarmed with my Glock G17, G19, G21, G22 with 120 round magazines (provided they're credible, vetted 10 round magazines, which means Magpul 10 rounders for the G17 and G19). I frankly prefer the 13 round magazines for my G21, primarily because they're easier to load and reload into a G21 in battery that it is with the Glock 10 rounders.

    Another field worthy of exploration is the effect of higher capacity magazines inducing higher shot expenditures-especially if there's a training deficiency either individually or organizationally. Collateral damage isn't just a cute term.

    I'll also suggest that a primary advantage of backup/reload magazines is to 1) provide continued credible performance in the event of a weapon malfunction necessitating stripping out the initial magazine, 2) to provide a continued renewed source of ammunition after a situation is resolved with a partial (or full) expenditure of ammunition in the initial magazine, and 3) to provide a continued source of fresh ammunition in the event of ammunition expenditure with the initial magazine-and pretty much in that order for what I suspect is the vast majority of gun use scenarios, buttressed by continued FBI reporting of most situations being resolved by 3-5 round ammunition expenditures over decades of study. That study also would seemingly suggest that there's limited use for high capacity magazines for many users/situations.

    I'll freely admit that when hunting or in the wilderness I prefer a high capacity platform-in my case likely a G21 or G22 with Underwood Lehigh cartridges in the event of a charging bear, etc. And, if we assume or take the position that the real purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to provide citizen response to constitutionally inappropriate governmental or alien incursions into citizen's rights, when utilized in a military context high capacity magazines make eminent sense. But thast's probably not what most of us are dealing with on a daily duty or EDC usage.

    What has really resonated with me over the last several, if not longer years is Darryl Bolke's seminal discussion of the purpose and advantages of the LEM/DAO action for organizational and individual use, particularly if there's a threat management component incorporated into a gun use scenario-as well as the ability to get off a trigger when the split-second determination is made that firing is neither appropriate or desirable. I believe in that discussion Darryl asserted that if he was back on Patrol his likely firearm of choice would be the HK45 with LEM-and that's a 10 round magazine capacity platform. It really emphasized to me that a, if not the key factor in most firearm situations is control as opposed to capacity per se.

    I appreciate a good, measured, factually fueled discussion of these things. This video simply doesn't provide such, and I expect more out of someone positioning themselves or perceived as a subject matter expert

    Best, Jon
    Last edited by JonInWA; 12-08-2022 at 01:09 PM.
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  2. #22
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leroy Suggs View Post
    "Multiple skilled invaders". Your ass is cooked.I don't care how many rounds you have.
    Some situations you can't win.

    Like someone, somewhere said, "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets."
    I don't want to be the exception to that rule. Of course, if bad guys with SEAL Team skills break into my house, I'm fucked. But I want to push back against this argument. I've been in situations where I wanted more than 10 rounds in my gun.

    Like many here, I've worked hard to build solid pistol shooting skills. We know that stopping a threat with handgun ballistics often requires multiple hits. That's one reason we practice pairs or Bill drills. Mags get empty fast when you shoot 2, 3, ... 6 at one target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    ...I don't think we should debate whether 10+1 is enough, but here are my thoughts: Everyone should make their own decision about the appropriate defensive solution. Most of the time, I carry 15+1, without a reload. Sometimes I carry 6+1 with a reload. And sometimes I carry 17+1 with two reloads. --All based on risk assessment and what I'm able to conceal and carry comfortably.

    A couple of years ago I was carrying a G43 with a reload, and three carloads of tweakers arrived at my family's backcountry picnic site and blocked our vehicle while they searched for their lost "stuff". I spent a few very tense minutes with my hand under my jacket telling them to leave. It did occur to me that I might not be sufficiently armed.
    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie

  3. #23
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    body armored assailants
    The Buffalo Tops shooter, a few miles from me, had body armor and thus was not taken down by the ex-law officer security guard. So it happens, is it modal? No. But that's the point, you don't just train or carry to exclusion on the modal event.

    We debated an almost automatic "Mozambique" response awhile ago, given the games don't really go that way. However, SMEs have said if you suspect body armor, go for the head. That's exciting with a 6 shot gun, esp. if there are two assailants. I assume none of us will miss?

    As far as revolver vs. semi reloads, the former is slow without intense training and modified guns. That's been shown. When I shot my 642, the gamers were all about how I should modified it for moon clips and carry such. Game gear was not for a pocket gun, trying to be low profile with a speed strip. That's for dress constraints and understanding its limits.

    I think that for belt carry, 10 or more and an extra mag or two is easy and while not modally oriented is oriented BUT oriented towards a reasonable cut off in the incident intensity distribution. It's just good old stat theory of critical levels.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duces Tecum View Post
    Please understand that I'm not picking on you, Frank, I'm only seeking clarification. In "the past few years" how many times have you had to employ the "revolvers that have kept (you) safe" in a defensive situation? And under what conditions? Knowing that may assist in evaluating the concept that six (or possibly 5) rounds is sufficient to repel boarders.
    This is right on. It’s easy to talk about how such-and-such a gun has kept you safe, when it has done absolutely no such thing.

    Supergluing your ass to the seat of your truck instead of wearing your seatbelt doesn’t mean that the glue kept you safe if you were never in a crash.

    I’m weighing the likelihood of an HR complaint if I start carrying a 33-rounder down the front of my pants.

  5. #25
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    @FrankB

    I seem to recall your having some vacillation on the revolver vs. semi-auto pistol front over the past couple of years...where you were selling, not selling, and choosing or un-choosing sides. That's my recollection, anyway.

    Personally, I let where I plan to travel to help me make a decision. Home and walking around distances...my 642 is my carry of choice.

    Going to town or further abroad...a G26 with a reload carries the day.

    If I really felt I needed to be prepared for something imminent, (which as a retired guy I'm not expecting), I'd upgrade as required...both in size, ability and capacity.

    Most days, I'm comfortable walking around my environs with a J. At the supermarket, gas station or elsewhere where more people come into play, I prefer to take that into account.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    get 10 rounders for a USP 45 and drive on (or do they have reliability issues like Glock ban compliant mags do? Seriously interested in this question, not to change the subject).
    HK 10-rounders are good to go in my limited experience.

  7. #27
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Français View Post
    This is right on. It’s easy to talk about how such-and-such a gun has kept you safe, when it has done absolutely no such thing.
    .
    I should have clarified my “kept me safe” comment. I’ve carried revolvers (it’s almost never one) 99.99% of the time for 3 years, and I’m still alive. Kind of like saying the exterior door and lock on my bedroom keeps me safe at night. It hasn’t been tested yet, but it does help me to sleep better than the $19 cardboard doors that most houses have.

    @blues You are 100% correct, sir! This decision wasn’t made lightly.

  8. #28
    J frame only in my pocket while at home, cutting the grass, walking in the neighborhood.

    When I go to town I carry my 5" 1911 .45 and a couple of reloads.

    We just had an armed robbery of a convenience store in my area, 4 bad guys with long guns came in and put everyone (staff and customers) on the ground and robbed them. Thankfully they left and didn't hurt anyone.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankB View Post
    I should have clarified my “kept me safe” comment. I’ve carried revolvers (it’s almost never one) 99.99% of the time for 3 years, and I’m still alive. Kind of like saying the exterior door and lock on my bedroom keeps me safe at night. It hasn’t been tested yet, but it does help me to sleep better than the $19 cardboard doors that most houses have.
    “It does help me to sleep better” is absolutely a valid reason to do things. I would just point out that when the balloon goes up, how we feel about what we’re packing is of little use.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter FrankB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Français View Post
    “It does help me to sleep better” is absolutely a valid reason to do things. I would just point out that when the balloon goes up, how we feel about what we’re packing is of little use.
    I’d agree with that, but my mindset has changed with 12 rounds ready. At a gas station, I have one hand on a revolver that’s in my front pocket, and I’m always scanning. We have a legitimate full service convenience stores in PA (WaWa), and I’m always ready to drop what’s in my hands, and draw form my left or right side. I actually visualize these scenarios when visiting these places. I do not go to 7-11 stores. In addition to the exterior bedroom door, there’s a AR within two feet of my bed, along with a 4” revolver and an 8 round Mossberg 590. Lights are kept on downstairs, and the bedroom has three sets of decorative low light nightlights. Yes, we sleep with nightlights. lol!

    Here’s another real life “shootout” with retired police captain Ersie Joyner. He was rushed by 3 savages, but waited for his chance. While standing next to his his car and behind a gas pump, Joyner successfully smoked a fool, and won the fight. However, rather than remaining behind cover, Joyner moved into the open and was shot. I have the greatest respect for Joyner’s decision to wait for his turn, but it would appear that his police mindset kicked in when he exposed his vestless self to the other two scumbags.


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