Am I just Herding Cats? …Technique & Accuracy Gremlins!

[Chomps]

TL;DR Version,.. I SUCK!! 🤷 🤣

For the more patient reader,..

As a newb(ish) shooter, who has aged considerably in the past few years,.. 😉 I have a few issues that may or may not present a real challenge in acquiring good pistol technique. Any combination of which, is making it difficult to pin down any of the specific gremlins that could be negatively affecting my shooting accuracy and/or precision.

A partial list of those gremlins are as follows;

#1: My eyesight. I don’t need to wear glasses normally except to drive and sometimes to read. I have an astigmatism and I also have very different near & far Rx’s. For the most part, I tend to shoot without my glasses and any correction. I am also cross eye dominant. So Right handed shooter, Left eye’d for lining up the sights.

#2: Grip,.. i.e. My Arthritis, I lack a certain amount of grip strength and the ability to really clamp down tight on the pistol. So that’s likely an issue.

#3: Trigger. (Setting aside the differences of opinion on what, if any influence finger placement ultimately has on accuracy.) There’s the matter of trigger placement & pull. Trying to diagnose minute differences in placement and how much or how little finger I should or shouldn’t use,.. which can also change depending on the pistol being used, the varying lengths of pull, etc.

# 4/5/6/ so on, etc,…. To complicate matters further,.. I’ve also had a couple of equipment & zeroing issues that I’ve been trying to diagnose and straighten out. Stuff like Wrong height sights,.. Red Dot plates loosening, Along with noticeable differences in what some pistols manufacturers stated specifications are regarding sight picture, POA/POI and recommended ‘Hold’ verses my experience regarding ACTUAL POA/POI & hold for a given pistol.

All that,.. and we haven’t even gotten around to addressing any issues of accounting for POA/POI shifts with different loads & ammunition or of the difficulties of incorporating all of this technique into situational stress and actual combat/self defense conditions.


So With ALL this going on,.. how on earth is someone (Especially a NEW Shooter,) supposed to go about isolating, diagnosing, and methodically nailing down the reasons why their range sessions and shot groups aren’t consistent from one session to the next?

Thus,.. my comparison of recent experiences @ the range to me attempting to wrangle a herd of feral cats!!

I constantly check in on the ‘Freestyle Shooting @ 25yds’ thread and I am ABSOLUTELY AMAZED & DUMBSTRUCK seeing how many of you can manage to shoot offhand, 3”-4”-5” Even 8” inch groups @ 25yds.

For me, Even seated, with a benched/braced pistol, and using an 18” by 24” silhouette & a red dot? It’s often a crap shoot if all my rounds will stay in the black on the silhouette. 😢
(…exactly how DOES one “Flinch” a benched pistol?)🤣🤷*♂️🤦*♂️

Im not a terrible shot with a pistol at 7-10-12 yds and in,.. even shooting relatively fast. But @ 15 yds & out? It starts to get pretty damned sloppy and inconsistent.

Im just honestly confused and overwhelmed about where to start to try to correct or tighten things up.

So,.. I was hoping someone might have some experience and advice where to start the diagnosing and the prioritizing of training to help in the progression of steps required to narrow down and correcting these myriad issues??

[okie john]

First off, don’t try to self-diagnose. Most folks who teach a basic handgun course will know what to look for and can help you with a one-hour private lesson.

Shooting from a bench demands a different technique than shooting offhand. It guarantees nothing in and of itself.

Glasses and astigmatism shouldn’t be problems. I have both and have worked through them. You can, too. I don’t have eye dominance issues but you can work through those as well.

Put your finger on the trigger in the position that lets you press straight back at the end of the trigger stroke. Figure out where you need to start to end up there, then stick with that. Your finger may end up deeper into the guard than you think.

Ammo is part of the equation. Not all pistols shoot all loads equally well and different loads have different POIs.



Three loads, three POIs at 15 yards. At longer distance, the differences between them will be greater.

Defense-grade JHP ammo is usually more accurate in more guns than other types of ammo. FMJ runs from good to horrible. Find the load that your gun shoots well and stick to that. I’ve had good luck with S&B and American Eagle.

Don’t sweat POI for now if you’re as bad as you claim. Get to where you can shoot good groups consistently, then use the sights to move the groups where you want them.

I can’t help with the arthritis—mine is all in my hips.


Okie John

[CraigS]

There will be more experienced capable guys than me here soon but I will start out.
1- I am cross eye dominant also and I don't see a problem w/ it at all. I close my right eye. In theory I am losing some peripheral vision to the R but I can't do anything to change so don't even think about. My astigmatism only affects me when using a red dot and it's not a big deal. I do find that turning down the dot brightness will help reduce the size that the dot blooms to.
Distances? Ahhh, whatever. My prescriptions are not as drastic as yours but still..I figure the longest distance in my house that I need to defend is 35ft. That is also the longest distance for the majority of idpa match targets. I know, I know, there are examples of defending at longer distances than that but, the probability of that being me, is so low I don't worry about it.
2- Grip strength. Only been shooting for 25 years and for 20 of them I had no concern about grip. Pull the trigger, pistol comes up, then pistol comes down, align sights, and pull the trigger again. No big deal. IDPA changed that for sure. Because now time matters. Waiting for the up/down/align makes followup shots take longer. But, to me, it has no effect on my accuracy. I grip as tightly as I can and I get the results that I get. Others are faster. OK, there are some who are slower. It is what it is.
3- Yep different triggers shoot differently. I just tried a new trigger in my Beretta 92. Turns out it ads 1/16in to the reach. Figured that with the first touch. Took some pics to post on another forum and took the new trigger out of the gun. I could get used to it but why? Maybe you should concentrate on one gun so the problem goes away. There are so many brands that have nearly identical guns in full, medium, and small sizes that it is easy to have 3 guns that feel nearly identical trigger wise.
4,5,6- POA and POI and sight picture 'holds'. Early on I said screw em all. It didn't happen instantly but all our pistols are set so POI is at the top edge of the front sight. I am not changing sight picture because I changed from one pistol to another. I have found that I like a somewhat narrow front sight compared to the rear so I have more light on either side of the front blade. 3 months ago I bought the most expensive pistol I have ever owned a Beretta 92x Defensive. It comes w/ a really nice adjustable rear sight. After my first range trip I got out the file and widened the rear notch. It is a very popular thread but I have never looked at the 25yds thread. It is simply not something I am interested in. We are all different so no big deal.
Ending; I am a fan of trying to push my limits but I sure don't let it get to me...too much. Any range trip I have a rule. No matter what we have been trying this day, I am going to save a mag or two of ammo to finish w/ something I feel comfortable with and enjoy. My wife really likes this rule. We talk on the way home about how we did w/ what we were working on but we are always happy because we learned a little but we also had fun. So in your case try some longer shots, but then drop back to stuff that is just a little long. And save for the end. Heck even doing a 15 rnd mag dump at a 15ft target is fun as heck so why not do that last.

[LukeNCMX]

You need some professional instruction. My favorite material for introduction to the fundamentals comes from the Tactical Performance Center.

Reading between the lines, it looks like most of your issues revolve around the quality and consistency of your grip.

[JCN]

@Chomps what are your goals and how much effort are you willing to dedicate to get there?

Are you willing to dry fire for 20 minutes a day?

Are you willing to buy equipment that will facilitate your development?

[Chomps]

You need some professional instruction. My favorite material for introduction to the fundamentals comes from the Tactical Performance Center.

Reading between the lines, it looks like most of your issues revolve around the quality and consistency of your grip.

Is this the Training outfit you’re referencing? They do appear to have some good, informative content.
https://tacticalperformancecenter.com/

…Also, Yes! I am certain that my grip is introducing some inconsistencies. I recently purchased some grip strengthening devices. I Will have to see if these help or if using them results in setting off additional, incapacitating Flare Ups! (I have an unusual form of intermittent, severe flaring arthritis). But I am looking to improve my grip as much as I can.

@Chomps what are your goals and how much effort are you willing to dedicate to get there?

Are you willing to dry fire for 20 minutes a day?

Are you willing to buy equipment that will facilitate your development?

@JCN Hmnn,.. for some unknown reason, I do not have a good, well thought out answer for that beyond a blanket statement of “Personal Defense!” Thank you for making me realize this is something I need to better define for myself!! I obviously would like to develop a level of accuracy, proficiency, confidence and knowledge. But to WHAT level exactly? That is a good question & I’m actually a little embarrassed that my answer for that is not yet well defined.

I can say that Im not really looking to become a Competitive shooter or some sort of high speed, tactical operator. Have neither the time, money, or physical ability for that. But beyond that I don’t have a weel thought out reply! 🤷

I can certainly commit to 20 min of dry fire a day. And Yes! I am willing to spend a little time & money on equipment to help facilitate improving my skills. (…within reason, and the limit of my credit of course!) 🤣😉

[JCN]

@Chomps

If you’re up for a little pain, make a training journal thread and I’ll try and help you there.

Agree that getting some instruction would probably be a good thing for you.

As an aside, the more conscious and inquisitive and critical you are of every dry fire and live fire rep you do, the more effective it is.

[Robinson]

Something I saw recently that is helping me in my journey of self improvement is a video from a class taught by Chuck Pressburg. His delivery is, well, unique -- but what he said is profound in its simplicity.

If a bullet you just fired lands outside the bottom of the big circle on your target, then where were your sights aiming when you broke the shot? They were aiming outside the bottom of the big circle! Why did you not correct the point of aim before the shot was fired?!

Hitting exactly where you aim assumes a couple of things. First, that your sights are zeroed. Next, that you aren't jerking the trigger. This highlighted to me (again) that my problem is pressing the trigger without moving the sights. I grip the gun hard, but still struggle with accuracy. A proper trigger press must be considered a fundamental skill that if not learned will be a blocker to improvement. If the trigger press is good, then the bullet is going to hit where the sights are aimed.

So now when I practice, most of my focus is on two things:
1) Trigger press. Don't jerk the darn trigger.
2) Clean up the sight picture before breaking the shot, in all cases.

There are times I know my sights have drifted immediately before or during the trigger press and those shots always end up being off target. This has caused me to slow down a bit and be deliberate about seeing the sights on target and the trigger press. One day hopefully before too long I will be able to start speeding up again without going off the rails.

[JCN]

I grip the gun hard, but still struggle with accuracy.

Did you ever consider that the two might be related?

I use approximately the same grip pressure as I do shaking a 60 year old woman’s hand.

I’m not a crusher at all.

A super crusher can compensate for bad trigger presses.

But a good trigger press won’t need the compensation and a more flexible grip allows speed in the trigger finger.

[Robinson]

Did you ever consider that the two might be related?

I use approximately the same grip pressure as I do shaking a 60 year old woman’s hand.

I’m not a crusher at all.

A super crusher can compensate for bad trigger presses.

But a good trigger press won’t need the compensation and a more flexible grip allows speed in the trigger finger.

Yes, and I think you gave me some helpful feedback in an earlier thread. Without a tight grip I really struggle with accuracy, and a strong grip helps. But I need to shift away from that a bit and I have been focusing way more on my trigger press.

It still blows my mind though that you get good results with a fairly light grip on the gun. It tells me there is something I need to chase that is not just grip strength.