1911s That aren't 1911s

[Evil_Ed]

Colt made the gun to Browning's patent specifications.

FN did the same in Europe. Colt and FN had an "agreement" of sorts concerning Browning's patents that way. South America was more or less a free-for-all IIRC, but the lines were clearly drawn between North America and Europe in that way. Not sure where Asia fell into that...anyway.

OP, would it surprise you to know FN made their own version of the 1911? If it does, you haven't really spent any time digging into the history of the 1911...sadly WWI broke out and FN never went into serial production of the gun. There are a few out there though; tool room samples and a couple of completed sales samples that were shopped around before everyone decided to start shooting at each other.

FN never tooled back up after the war to make them because there were a ton of GI and commercial 1911s all over Europe after WWI and they felt like they couldn't compete.

Also, the original chamberings of the 1911 and all of it's prototypes would include 38 ACP, 45ACP, and .455 Webley Auto. At least those were the ones that it was chambered it (and it's prototypes) while Browning was alive. I'm sure 38 Super was in the works as well before he passed.

The FN chambering was again a mid-caliber (9.65x23mm per the internet, or roughly .38 cal - not .355) cartridge if I remember right. Again, this was while Browning was alive, so you can't really say "but it's not a 1911"...it was literally made to the patent and drawing specifications.

[HeavyDuty]

Okay we'll go Barney the Purple Dinosaur speed on this.

Brutal.

But almost everyone would also agree that a 1911 is *always* a specific action type; a Browning short-recoil SAO pistol with a grip safety, positive thumb safety, external hammer, barrel lugs that are swung in and out of lockup by a swinging link, and has a trigger that pulls straight back with an inimitably excellent grip angle.

Good point beyond the swinging link criteria I mentioned before - grip and thumb safety. One of the reasons I don’t consider a Wilson X9 to be a 1911.

[willie]

When I was young, everybody called the 1911 a 45 Automatic. 38 Super or 9mm Colts were something people who lived somewhere else owned, and they were probably weird too. Folks knew that some Spanish knockoffs existed.

[spinmove_]

Glock is a brand name, not a specific model.
The analogy would be that a Colt military .45 is a 1911 while a Colt Commander 9mm is not a 1911 but it is still a Colt.

But that battle is lost and you may call a dog's tail a leg if you wish.

In other news pedantic people in pedantic threads are overly pedantic to the point where the original point being made goes over the head of the painfully pedantic attempting to impress upon the less pedantic that they’re not being pedantic enough despite making it obvious that they’re trying to avoid being that level of pedantic while poking fun at overly pedantic things….

PEPSI AND COKE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ALIKE AND YOU’LL NEVER CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Jim Watson]

[QUOTE=spinmove_;1424709]
PEPSI AND COKE ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ALIKE AND YOU’LL NEVER CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE!

Darn right they are.
My lunch stop today has Pepsi. I put lemon in it to disguise the non-Coca Cola flavor.

[4RNR]

I've been schooled that any size and caliber auto pistol can be a 1911. For those who refer to 9mm, 10s .38s as 1911s. What makes these guns qualify as 1911s? Isn't there a definition somewhere? What is the definition of a 1911? I know the definition of a revolver. It has an easy to see, specific design. Now I don't know the meaning of a gun called a 1911. I'm learning more about pistols, but pistol terminology is wanting! Does racking an auto pistol mean chambering a round, or is the slide only racked to clear a round or malfunction. Racking a slide means chambering a round or cocking the gun, it also means clearing a round in the chamber. How does anyone know what someone is referring to when he said he racked his gun, or slide. The only way to know the answer is ask him what he means. We may know what he means if we see what he's doing.

If a guy told me he owns a 1911, I would have to ask a series of question to learn his definition of the gun.

I understand most of my rant will mean nothing to most, but hopefully I made you think a little, and thinking is good for everyone.

I'm old!

Context. The phrase is applied to the situation. Like "close the door" or "turn off the lights" or "rack the slide".

Does turn off the lights mean you're going to bed or that you're hiding from someone or that you're saving on electricity. Or maybe about to watch a movie? How does anyone know?

So... If you're about to shoot you rack the slide to chamber a round because the bullet is to going to climb in there by itself. If you're done shooting you rack the slide to double check that the chamber is empty. Also, racking the slide automatically cocks the gun. And you know what people are talking about based on the conversation being had at the moment because the phrase "rack the slide" doesn't just get randomly blurted out. Just like the word "drink" doesn't get thrown out as the only thing said.

If a guy said he owns a revolver what image do you automatically get? So if a guy said he owns a 1911 do you have a picture in your head of a stapler? No! Now, if you wanted to know more info or if more info was needed for the context of the conversation then there would be more info.
Years ago a friend of mine was gifted an Arisaka (Japanese ww1-ww2 bolt action rifle). Arisakas come in 2 different calibers and lengths and specific features but I know what an Arisaka is and that was enough for that specific conversation. The length, caliber and features didn't matter for that specific conversation

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Wasn't the original design by Browning not in .45ACP?

[Robinson]

Wasn't the original design by Browning not in .45ACP?

Oh now you've done it.

Yes, he originally designed it for the 38 auto but the military wanted a 45.

[Half Moon]

Wasn't the original design by Browning not in .45ACP?

.38 ACP but 9mm-ish bullets got a bad rep in the Phillipines for not stopping Moro's (who also weren't reliably anchored by .30-40 Krag rifle fire, go figure). Up chambered to a .45 at the Army's request. The .38 ACP would get the +P+ treatment and become the .38 Super when .45 ACP and .38 Special couldn't penetrate auto bodies reliably in the 20's. Making the only true 1911 a .38 Super as Browning (almost) intended :-P

[Jim Watson]

Colt made the gun to Browning's patent specifications.

*Yes, but Browning and Colt had kept revising and upgrading the design to suit the Army. The gun was already being issued by the time the last patent was issued in 1913.

OP, would it surprise you to know FN made their own version of the 1911?

*Right, the Grand Browning.

The FN chambering was again a mid-caliber (9.65x23mm per the internet, or roughly .38 cal - not .355) cartridge if I remember right.

*And don't forget the 9.8mm Colt ca 1912. Is 9.8 Colt the same as 9.65 FN or just similar?

Also, the original chamberings of the 1911 and all of it's prototypes would include 38 ACP, 45ACP, and .455 Webley Auto. At least those were the ones that it was chambered it (and it's prototypes) while Browning was alive. I'm sure 38 Super was in the works as well before he passed.

*As I understand it, the Super .38 Colt pistol was introduced for .38 Auto because they realized that the 1902/1903 "parallel ruler" guns were obsolete compared to the 1911 design.
The ammo companies did not soup up the loads to what we now know as .38 Super +P for a couple of years.


ETA: While the first Colt Browning pistols were in .38 Rimless Smokeless aka .38 Auto aka .38 ACP, the guns are very distant ancestors of the 1911, the operating system is different, there are no parts in common.

Colt prototyped a .40 Auto but gave up on it when it was obvious the Old Indian Fighters were not going to accept anything but a .45.