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Thread: A general 30-06 Question for the SMEs

  1. #11
    My Savage has a 22" tube... killed a nice 6X6 elk at 361 yards in September. I wouldn't sweat it. Even a 16 or 18 inch gun will work fine farther than most folks can shoot accurately.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by WDR View Post
    My Savage has a 22" tube... killed a nice 6X6 elk at 361 yards in September. I wouldn't sweat it. Even a 16 or 18 inch gun will work fine farther than most folks can shoot accurately.
    Short barrels can work very well in the 30-06, especially if you handload. I once had an 18" pseudo-Scout that would do an honest 2,600 with 180-grain bullets and a book-max load of H4831.

    I quit using it after NASA complained that the muzzle flash/blast were disturbing operations on the International Space Station.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    I think they stand up well to the pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight.

    Let me know if you have questions.
    Thanks a ton for this info. I bought two 1640s, a 30-06 and a .243, off Simpson when they were cheap but I haven’t done anything with them. I could never find much info but supposedly the receivers are the same footprint as small ring Mausers. They are indeed smooth, compact little actions.

    Do the stamped bolt catches wear out or have any issues over time?

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Super77 View Post
    Do the stamped bolt catches wear out or have any issues over time?
    Not to my knowledge.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  5. #15
    I have a 22" 06.

    Terminal ascent 175gr factory ammo does 2730fps
    Browning 195gr TMK factory ammo does 2585 fps

    A max load of h4831sc under a .208gr Eld-m did 2590.

  6. #16
    I Demand Pie Lex Luthier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    Most cheap 30-06 factory ammo is loaded for deer hunters, so performance is optimized for that. Buy it, use it in confidence, and don’t sweat the twist rate. 1:10 is standard for the 30-06 for one reason: the 30-03 needed it for 220-grain bullets and it was too expensive to rebarrel 75,000 rifles when we switched to the 30-06. The gubmint pulled the barrels, cut off the back ends off, rechambered them, and reinstalled them. If we were starting today without that limitation, the twist would probably be 1:12, which is standard for the 30-30 and the 308 Winchester.

    As for the rifle itself, I applaud your choice. I live just outside Tacoma, WA, where Tradewinds used to be. We see lots of these rifles on used racks around here and I've owned six or seven of them, all in 30-06.

    Different variants got different model numbers, but 1640 typically refers to the action. I’ve seen three variants on the 1640 action. The first and least common has a Monte Carlo buttstock and a Mannlicher forend. The second has a Monte Carlo buttstock and a Schnable forend. The third has a standard buttstock (lots of drop at the comb and heel) and a Schnable forend. The first and third types are usually walnut. The second is usually a light-colored hardwood that may be either birch or beech.

    Unfortunately, recoil in all three types tend to split the web of the stock, but glass bedding fixes that. All of mine had 1:12 twist barrels and most were very accurate with cheap factory ammo.

    Barrels came in three lengths: 20.5”, 22”, and 24”. Every Mannlicher gun I’ve seen had a 20.5” barrel and all Monte Carlo/Schnable guns had 22” barrels. I’ve seen all three lengths on the standard/Schnable rifles.

    All three are very light, and IIRC, all have low iron sights. The standard/Schnable rifles are stocked perfectly for these sights, which means they’re too low for a scope. But if you put a peep on them, then you have a slick little carbine that’s no longer or heavier than a 30-30 but has twice the reach. The Monte Carlo/Schnable guns fit me almost perfectly and are ideal for offhand shooting. They’re my choice for scoped use.

    I've owned three 20.5” guns in 30-06 and I think the barrel is too short for it. That said, the only one I still own is a 20.5” that my father gave me. A few years ago, my son used it to clobber a 200-ish pound hog in California with a 165-grain Remington CoreLokt bullet handloaded to 2,550 FPS. That hog was bigger than most deer and everything worked perfectly.

    A few other things to know about them:
    • Most of them have military-type triggers, which are a lot like Glock triggers. Timney makes the upgrade you need.
    • At some point, any 1640 will stop ejecting and cases will dribble out of the action. That's because the ejector is tensioned by a little leaf spring that's held in place by a screw and the screw backs out. Re-tighten the screw, add a dab of red LocTite, and you'll be back in business.
    • The serial number is on the barrel, not the action. If you rebarrel it, then your smith needs to carry the number over.
    • Many commercial 98 aftermarket parts will work, often with little or no fitting. So will most tuning tricks that apply to Mausers. Brownell’s is a good source of information on parts for them.
    • The 1900 action (push feed) replaced the 1640 in the late 60s.
    • The 1640 had two types of bottom metal: steel and alloy. You can tell by the floorplate latch. On earlier guns, the latch is a folded steel spring. On later guns, it’s a protrusion inside the trigger guard like on a Model 700 Remington. Stocks inletted for one won’t work with the other.
    • The front of the alloy magazine can get dented under recoil if you shoot a lot, but this may not be a problem with cartridges less powerful than the 30-06 or if you don’t load the 30-06 to the maximum.

    If you like older lightweight rifles with wood stocks and you hunt in bad weather, a 22” 1640 glass bedded into a beech Monte Carlo/Schnable stock with a 4x scope is a superb choice.

    I think they stand up well to the pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight.

    Let me know if you have questions.


    Okie John

    I thank you for the info, sir. PMs incoming.

    Lots of thanks to the rest of the posters.

    Almost all of my centerfire rifle experience has been with milsurp bolt rifles, black powder cartridge single shot breech loaders, and a couple of muzzle-loaders in the mix. I did own a 1891 Argentine Mauser engineer's carbine -that I wish I'd hung onto*- and a Type 44 Mosin Carbine that I am glad is hanging on someone else's wall now. Talk about a flame you can see from space!

    This is the first dedicated game rifle that I have considered owning, so my knowledge base is starting from scratch in a lot of ways.

    *"Steeempy! You EEEEDIOT!"
    Last edited by Lex Luthier; 12-01-2022 at 11:04 AM.
    "If I ever needed to hunt in a tuxedo, then this would be the rifle I'd take." - okie john

    "Not being able to govern events, I govern myself." - Michel De Montaigne

  7. #17
    I Demand Pie Lex Luthier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super77 View Post
    Thanks a ton for this info. I bought two 1640s, a 30-06 and a .243, off Simpson when they were cheap but I haven’t done anything with them. I could never find much info but supposedly the receivers are the same footprint as small ring Mausers. They are indeed smooth, compact little actions.

    Do the stamped bolt catches wear out or have any issues over time?
    Please do let me know if you are interested in moving either of them, @Super77.
    "If I ever needed to hunt in a tuxedo, then this would be the rifle I'd take." - okie john

    "Not being able to govern events, I govern myself." - Michel De Montaigne

  8. #18
    I Demand Pie Lex Luthier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Northern Tier
    Postscript: @Super77 *was* interested in moving the 30-06 Husqvarna, and it resides here now.
    (The guy is a peach. Do business with him with confidence.)
    1956 manufacture date, 24" barrel, steel bottom metal, 6 lbs 14 oz dry. Made for the Swedish/Baltic domestic market and imported by Simpson Ltd in Illinois.

    I have a bunch of things to do and learn with this rifle before the next frost comes and MN deer season looms. I'll cover that in another thread.

    Thanks again to all.

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    Last edited by Lex Luthier; 04-02-2023 at 09:28 PM.
    "If I ever needed to hunt in a tuxedo, then this would be the rifle I'd take." - okie john

    "Not being able to govern events, I govern myself." - Michel De Montaigne

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Luthier View Post
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    This conversation inspired me to take my 1640 to the range last week. It weighs 7 pounds 9.875 ounces as shown with long-tube M-8 4x Leupold in Weaver rings & bases and sling. Eye relief is set is for my son, who has a neck like a giraffe.

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    Here's the rear scope base. I had Jim Cloward attach a folding Redfield peep to an aluminum Weaver base 20 years ago. Never needed it, but it's there. Front sight is a NECG ramp and bead.

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    Range work started with the chronograph.

    150-grain loads are all over the map but recoil isn't bad.
    • Greek surplus ball: 2,710 fps. This load is meant for the M-1 Garand.
    • Barnes TTSX factory: 2,855 fps. Solid 308 ballistics, but with a Barnes bullet. Accurate in most rifles.
    • Norma Whitetail: 2,540 fps. Classic 300 Savage ballistics and would be a superb short- to mid-range deer load.

    180-grain loads deliver classic 30-06 ballistics. Accuracy is usually ~1.5 MOA in most of my rifles. Recoil is no fun.
    • Winchester PowerPoint: 2,603 fps.
    • Remington CoreLokt RN: 2,637
    • Hornady Superformance: 2,688 fps. This load typically does ~3 MOA in any rifle that I own.

    I only tested one 220-grain load, Remington's CoreLokt RN: 2,269 fps. I bought this ammo nearly 20 years ago. This load runs about 2,350 in a 24" barrel and typically groups well.

    I tested a couple of mild (2,550 fps) 165-grain handloads. They all made near-MOA groups at 210 yards. Several 180-grain handloads with N560, RL-22, and Ramshot Hunter provide classic 30-06 ballistics in 22" and 24" barrels but barely hit ~2,550 fps in this rifle. Handloads with a less-than-max charge of H4350 ran right at 2,700 fps, so the issue is powder choice, not barrel length. I could probably get another 100 fps but I have no interest in that level of recoil.

    This rifle has a 1:12 twist, and it seems that it won't stabilize the 180-grain Barnes TTSX. I made this group with it at 210 yards using the 180 TTSX in a handload that shoots sub-MOA in other rifles. The bull is 10" in diameter, and the group is 8" extreme spread. That said, 4 MOA is more useful than it seems--I'd feel confident with it on big deer, elk, or larger game within 150 yards.

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    I finished the day with the 150-grain Barnes TTSX factory load. That one did 3" at 210, or a bit under 1.5 MOA.

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    Pouring rain and the odd eye-relief on the scope didn't help groups but I think I can blame the 180-grain group on twist.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    This conversation inspired me to take my 1640 to the range last week. It weighs 7 pounds 9.875 ounces as shown with long-tube M-8 4x Leupold in Weaver rings & bases and sling. Eye relief is set is for my son, who has a neck like a giraffe.

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    Here's the rear scope base. I had Jim Cloward attach a folding Redfield peep to an aluminum Weaver base 20 years ago. Never needed it, but it's there. Front sight is a NECG ramp and bead.

    Name:  Screen Shot 2023-04-03 at 10.15.09 AM.jpg
Views: 304
Size:  54.8 KB


    Range work started with the chronograph.

    150-grain loads are all over the map but recoil isn't bad.
    • Greek surplus ball: 2,710 fps. This load is meant for the M-1 Garand.
    • Barnes TTSX factory: 2,855 fps. Solid 308 ballistics, but with a Barnes bullet. Accurate in most rifles.
    • Norma Whitetail: 2,540 fps. Classic 300 Savage ballistics and would be a superb short- to mid-range deer load.

    180-grain loads deliver classic 30-06 ballistics. Accuracy is usually ~1.5 MOA in most of my rifles. Recoil is no fun.
    • Winchester PowerPoint: 2,603 fps.
    • Remington CoreLokt RN: 2,637
    • Hornady Superformance: 2,688 fps. This load typically does ~3 MOA in any rifle that I own.

    I only tested one 220-grain load, Remington's CoreLokt RN: 2,269 fps. I bought this ammo nearly 20 years ago. This load runs about 2,350 in a 24" barrel and typically groups well.

    I tested a couple of mild (2,550 fps) 165-grain handloads. They all made near-MOA groups at 210 yards. Several 180-grain handloads with N560, RL-22, and Ramshot Hunter provide classic 30-06 ballistics in 22" and 24" barrels but barely hit ~2,550 fps in this rifle. Handloads with a less-than-max charge of H4350 ran right at 2,700 fps, so the issue is powder choice, not barrel length. I could probably get another 100 fps but I have no interest in that level of recoil.

    This rifle has a 1:12 twist, and it seems that it won't stabilize the 180-grain Barnes TTSX. I made this group with it at 210 yards using the 180 TTSX in a handload that shoots sub-MOA in other rifles. The bull is 10" in diameter, and the group is 8" extreme spread. That said, 4 MOA is more useful than it seems--I'd feel confident with it on big deer, elk, or larger game within 150 yards.

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    I finished the day with the 150-grain Barnes TTSX factory load. That one did 3" at 210, or a bit under 1.5 MOA.

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    Pouring rain and the odd eye-relief on the scope didn't help groups but I think I can blame the 180-grain group on twist.


    Okie John
    Okie John:

    Can you provide any more details about the rear sight ghost ring set up? That is a very neat idea and one that merits more investigation from my end. This looks like a decent way to put a usable back up iron sight on a rifle normally reserved used with a scope. Is the gunsmith still in business?

    Thanks in advance for your help with this.

    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

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