Buckshot Size Selection #1 vs 00 vs #4 at 11 yards HD & Bullpup Semi-Auto Review!

[DanTheWolfman]

I hope some of you will find this interesting & entertaining. Buckshot Size Selection #1 vs 00 vs #4 at 11 yards HD & Bullpup Semi-Auto Review!


Since making this video I've read an IWBA article & DrGkr sticky on shotguns on this page....and for typical none mansion HD distances I think my preference for low recoil #1 Buck is warranted. I also like the Aguilla Mini-shell Buck mixed #1/#4 load (enough penetration, yet less retained momentum if miss/flyer) and think a Bullpup like the one in the video specifically made for 1 3/4" Mini-shells (Aguilla, Federal, Champion) w/ a simple Uzi type straightish magazine would work well & low enough recoil for smaller statured/women/everyone etc. Seems Full Power 00 is more than needed for HD or Warrant/Structure clearing IMO. For Patrol, I would prefer the Flight Control #1 (are they even still making it), Flight Control 00, or at least a pretty decent 00 for tighter groups at distance though it seems the Patrol Carbine/AR has replaced almost all other than designated less lethal pumps?
A Bullpup Semi-Auto 12 makes sense to me for like 1 in 4 of every Entry Team/SWAT/Warrant service to have. I don't know about reliability with 10 rd or longer mags, but 6 rounds in gun of 12 gauge is a hole lot when you have teammates with ARs covering and some w/ pistols to go hands on.

What are your thoughts?

Please also lend your thoughts to my Compilation on the Official 4-layer numbers and comparisons to each other & each pistol caliber with Tissue Crush Values figured out in my first thread post.
Thank you
Cheers,

[JTMcC]

The deformation of hulls when stored in a box mag is a thing to be considered.

As for the shot size, that's been figured out for a long time now.

[JCN]

For Patrol, I would prefer the Flight Control #1 (are they even still making it), Flight Control 00, or at least a pretty decent 00 for tighter groups at distance though it seems the Patrol Carbine/AR has replaced almost all other than designated less lethal pumps?
A Bullpup Semi-Auto 12 makes sense to me for like 1 in 4 of every Entry Team/SWAT/Warrant service to have. I don't know about reliability with 10 rd or longer mags, but 6 rounds in gun of 12 gauge is a hole lot when you have teammates with ARs covering and some w/ pistols to go hands on.

What are your thoughts?

Hi Dan! Welcome to the forum!

There’s a little tradition here that goes:

“Show me how you know what you know (and the context of your opinions)”

Something that would help your credibility would be:

What is your LEO / Patrol / SWAT experience to be commenting on equipment and ammunition?

(Because there are many LEO / SWAT here including some that have very extensive experience with the evolution of equipment and ammunition over the years)

Basically without people knowing you, it helps contextualize if you’re talking about theoretical stuff or practical stuff!

Again, welcome to the forum. It’s a great place with a lot of bona fide experts in their fields.

[Jason M]

What SG and ammo is currently issued/approved by your department?

[DanTheWolfman]

Hello,
Let me clarify I am not saying I would want a shotgun over an AR Patrol Carbine for Patrol.
I am saying for ME, at typical HD distances the semi auto bullpup 12 is preferred w/lower velocity #1. Terminal Ballistics at short range, shorter OAL more maneuverable less exposure, less retained momentum.
I was saying if it was a shotgun on patrol would want a flight control or tighter patterning Buckshot at least.
I do worry about hull deformation in 10rd or long mags but can't find any info...surprisingly because for a little while there were Saigas being the IN thing and some used in 3 gun.

Without knowing long term durability and reliability, not claiming one brand is up to stuff. However, I think the 12 bullpup could have a place for entry teams and warrants some consideration and testing.

I think a bullpup semi auto specifically chambered for 1 3/4" minishells would be a great HD choice alternative to an AR or PCC. There are 590M and M&P12 that can cycle reliably as far as I know.

As for flexing or lack thereoff.... I am Armed Security that has done all the Firearms training through a SWAT school. Furthermore, I am a lifetime Martial Arts Expert SME in Combatives/Jiu-jitsu/MMA w/4Black Belts and a Combatives & Street Jiu-jitsu Instructional on BJJFANATICS

[JCN]

@DanTheWolfman

If you had said that, it would have been way better received.

This place is more like a BJJ dojo and you’re the new guy.

You basically threw open the door as a white belt and told the black belts that they really should train with nunchucks.

You don’t want to be “that guy.”

I personally like bullpups, both for rifle and for shotgun in home defense.

Mini shells don’t have a lot of oomph in the current production offerings.

But I wouldn’t recommend them to anyone else or certainly not to LEO / MIL because it’s out of my lane.

Practical considerations are very important on a large scale for LEO/MIL.

Glocks may not be the best shooting guns, but there are many reasons why they are popular and appropriate choices.

[DanTheWolfman]

@DanTheWolfman

If you had said that, it would have been way better received.

This place is more like a BJJ dojo and you’re the new guy.

You basically threw open the door as a white belt and told the black belts that they really should train with nunchucks.

You don’t want to be “that guy.”

I personally like bullpups, both for rifle and for shotgun in home defense.

Mini shells don’t have a lot of oomph in the current production offerings.

But I wouldn’t recommend them to anyone else or certainly not to LEO / MIL because it’s out of my lane.

Practical considerations are very important on a large scale for LEO/MIL.

Glocks may not be the best shooting guns, but there are many reasons why they are popular and appropriate choices.

Funny, I just started at a new BJJ school (coming back from knee surgery) and other than to the owner didn't need to tell anyone unless asked I am a black belt. Though the 2nd night another black belt recognized from my YouTube vids and asked to roll.

Some guys only preach flight control from shotgun courses w 20 yard hostage headshots.

Yet most places I've lived have max realistic engagent distances of 11 yards..

Aguilla MiniBuck #1/#4 gives enough Terminal Ballistics and penetration to me for HD purposes without too much spread FOR ME or IMO average groggy home owner w less recoil. Hence the theoretical bullpup semi chambered only for 1 3/4".

Not necessarily for LE, though could.

Otherwise #1

[DanTheWolfman]

P.S. if you're a martial artist in NY that takes Subway you now legally should be carrying nunchucks.

Everything depends on everything

[DanTheWolfman]

The deformation of hulls when stored in a box mag is a thing to be considered.

As for the shot size, that's been figured out for a long time now.

Do you have any further info on this? I've wondered about it in 10 rdags and suggested storing w 9 rds. I don't have that fear w 5 rd mag but haven't found any info on it.

[JCN]

Funny, I just started at a new BJJ school (coming back from knee surgery) and other than to the owner didn't need to tell anyone unless asked I am a black belt. Though the 2nd night another black belt recognized from my YouTube vids and asked to roll.

YES! Basically you kept your mouth shut and he kept his mouth shut.

You didn’t enter the dojo as a white belt and tell people what you thought they should do (which is how it came across in your talking about patrol and SWAT with only being a classroom SWAT).

Literally some of the people here wrote that curriculum and maybe even were your instructors.

I’m picking up what you’re putting down and I think your choices are totally valid for you.

I’m just a regular dude and not LEO/MIL so I like the “defend my home” slant. I just wouldn’t recommend it for use in agencies that I have no firsthand knowledge of.