Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 52

Thread: POI Shift with Occluded Optic

  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    out of here
    @Clusterfrack

    I did an experiment a while ago where I taped my dominant eye lens and did a max speed draw with an RDS on a 7 yard target.

    I definitely had POI shift.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Away, away, away, down.......
    @Mark @JCN The Brock String and it’s exercises will help identify lack of 3D vision and also also can help you train convergence at a specific distance. If anyone tries this and and can’t get any Xs or Vs then occluded sights won’t work for you either. I still haven’t been able to train more than momentary convergence myself, but other people claim to have had success.

    I know this video is a bit long, but it’s the best one I’ve found as far as explanations and showing what you should be seeing.



    Written instructions with illustrated examples.

    https://www.matheson-optometrists.co...0Exercises.pdf
    Last edited by Caballoflaco; 11-26-2022 at 09:41 AM.

  3. #13
    One tool I have used to better understand the effect of various aiming systems and less than ideal eye alignment is a bore laser cowitnessed with the red dot. This quickly identifies the deviation and parallax for any given sighting system, and allows one to determine the effects of various permutations of eye alignment without needing to use live fire.

    (Also a useful learning tool with working on irons with both eyes open)
    Last edited by Archer1440; 11-26-2022 at 10:07 AM.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Wasatch Front
    What little I understand on this comes from Freddie Blish (former head of Mil sales at Aimpoint, Robar, & current Gunsite instructor).

    He has relayed that there is about 8-10% of the population that has difficultly working occluded optics on carbines. I have seen validated, numbers-wise, in a couple, three carbine classes since he brought it up to me.

    However, I have not seen it to near those numbers in pistol-mounted optics classes. Either at Gunsite or with my own teaching. While I have seen it happen, it is maybe one class that has significant problems working an occluded optic.

    There is something that doesn't connect, doesn't connect "right" in the nervous system, but I cannot go into it beyond that.

    If anyone has a pointer to the research, I'd be really interested in it.

  5. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    out of here
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    What little I understand on this comes from Freddie Blish (former head of Mil sales at Aimpoint, Robar, & current Gunsite instructor).

    He has relayed that there is about 8-10% of the population that has difficultly working occluded optics on carbines. I have seen validated, numbers-wise, in a couple, three carbine classes since he brought it up to me.

    However, I have not seen it to near those numbers in pistol-mounted optics classes. Either at Gunsite or with my own teaching. While I have seen it happen, it is maybe one class that has significant problems working an occluded optic.

    There is something that doesn't connect, doesn't connect "right" in the nervous system, but I cannot go into it beyond that.

    If anyone has a pointer to the research, I'd be really interested in it.
    As a clarifying question, do you think the difference in carbine versus pistol have something to do with the target size and distance requirements of those two classes… because that by itself could explain the difference in what you’re seeing in the classes.

    That’s just my WAG from training PCC and pistol.

    The other thing that could contribute is that in pistol, you can see the outline of the whole pistol with either eye and for carbine you don’t have the same cuing.

  6. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    West
    Lots of good input here, and fodder for experimentation. Much appreciated, folks.

  7. #17
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    The Secret City in Tennessee
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark D View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but I get a POI shift with an occluded pistol optic. I'm right handed and right-eye dominant, and bullet impact is significantly left when my optic is occluded. Any idea why this happens for some shooters?
    There is a possibility you have phoria. Aaron Cowan talks about it in his report, and we’ve seen it several times in our class. It’s an uncommon but not unheard of condition and other than things like occluded optics doesn’t really matter for most people, but for those shooting an optic, understanding whether they have it is important.

    Besides phoria, we find some people have such a strong habit of one-eye-open and front-sight focus that as a new optic shooter they have a really hard time shooting occluded. So it becomes a diagnosis issue of determining whether their trouble is psychological (habit) or physiological (Phoria). We’ve developed a couple experiments based on the cover/uncover test used by doctors to diagnose phoria... When someone is having an issue shooting occluded we’ll have them focus on the target with the pistol/optic just below and dot in view. I’ll have them (while focusing on the target) bring the pistol up and immediately fire as soon as the dot is on the target. Then I’ll have them do the same thing but wait a few seconds before shooting. If they make the immediate hit but miss after a few seconds, I’ll suggest they get checked. If they miss with both it’s a possibility they can’t break the habit of focusing on the pistol.

    As for glare and false dots, I think it’s essential to train in environments where the glare occurs to know what glare looks like and what the actual dot looks like. Knowing how the reflected light from both behaves will help in knowing which is right and which is wrong. Running a consistent brightness level helps too because I know what to expect in my dot vs false dots. I prefer that rather than occluding the optic, I learn to immediately determine which dot is the correct one.

    Of course, I have the benefit of multiple ranges so I can get glare just about every morning on a couple and every evening on a few more.

  8. #18

    Recent failed match experience with occluded dot

    Hi everyone, I'm new to this thread, but I had a recent experience with occluding the dot at a USPSA match that I thought was really interesting and worth sharing. It's kind of long, so I hope this doesn't mess up this thread.

    Bottom Line Up Front: Running an occluded dot in live fire caused my POI to be significantly laterally shifted from my POA, just like it has for others in this thread.

    What Happened: For background, I am a cross-eye dominant shooter who shot Production Division in USPSA on and off for a few years, making it to A class, before switching to Carry Optics a few months ago. I have been dry firing a fair amount recently, all of which has been with an occluded optic (Sig Romeo3 Max). This training seemed to have been going pretty well, though it had Not been confirmed thoroughly in live fire prior to my most recent match. I decided to run the dot occluded for the match.

    So that brings me to my recent enlightenment. I was the first shooter on my first stage of the day, and shot far worse than I expected. It was substantially worse than most of my previous matches. The stage had a number of no-shoots in line with shoot targets (in a few horizontal arrays), and I had several shots land deep inside those no-shoots. I knew that the first-stage-first-shooter jitters got the best of me and I shot too fast for my vision, but I also didn't call Any of my shots as quite so far into the no-shoots as they were. The second stage had the exact same issue, and I became worried I had bumped my optic out of zero. It seemed to be hitting to the right of my POA by around 5 or 6 inches at maybe 10 yards. On my third or fourth stage, I had to hold my dot completely off to the left of a mini popper in order for it to hit.

    I adjusted my dot by several clicks, hoping at this point to just get somewhere in the ballpark (which kind of worked, but not well). It was at this time that a more experienced shooter (someone on this thread) suggested something to me that ended up being the fix: he told me to adjust my dot back, because it probably was Not off, and remove the dot occlusion. He said it's possible that the way my vision superimposes the dot on the target when the dot is occluded - particularly at longer distances - might not match up with how the dot was zeroed (with no occlusion) due to some of the peculiarities of my binocular vision. For the rest of the stages, I adjusted my dot back to how it was originally, took the occlusion off, and all of a sudden I was hitting where I was looking.

    Now I'm wondering if there's a way I can still practice with the dot occluded in dry fire and then take it off when I live fire, or will that make for bad habits?

    Further analysis: as soon as I got home after the match, I placed the cover back on the dot and placed the gun upright in a rest (i.e. two couch cushions). I looked at where the dot was superimposed on a target, and determined it was my left (dominant) eye that was looking through the optic. When I moved my head to have my right (non-dominant) eye in line with the optic, the location of the dot relative to the target shifted drastically to the right. Based on this, it would make sense that I kept having issues hitting left or right of my POA if my eyes kept switching behind the optic, especially around leans ot other obstructions. While I wish I hadn't discovered this during a match, I think it's an important thing to know and test before running a match with the dot occluded, especially considering how popular it is in the competitive shooting community right now.

    I would love to hear if any of you think I can or should still train with my dot occluded, as well as any advice on future training. Thanks!
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 11-28-2022 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #19
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    Quote Originally Posted by Q5shooter View Post
    Hi everyone, I'm new to this thread, but I had a recent experience with occluding the dot at a USPSA match that I thought was really interesting and worth sharing.
    ...
    I would love to hear if any of you think I can or should still train with my dot occluded, as well as any advice on future training. Thanks!
    Welcome to Pistol-Forum, buddy! That was a rough match for you, and I was impressed by how you kept your composure when you weren't sure what was going on.

    I'm hoping some of our experienced RDS shooters and instructors can help put you on the right track. @SoCalDep, @AsianJedi, @1Rangemaster, @Erick Gelhaus, @JCN, @GJM, who else am I forgetting to tag?

    Summary (please correct if needed):

    • Very skilled iron sight shooter; relatively new to RDS
    • Cross-dominant (right handed, left eye dominant)
    • Shooting a Romeo Max with the optic fully covered
    • Aiming mostly with R eye, but sometimes switching to L eye
    • Large POI shift to R on some shots
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  10. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    out of here
    Quote Originally Posted by Q5shooter View Post
    I would love to hear if any of you think I can or should still train with my dot occluded, as well as any advice on future training. Thanks!
    Welcome to the site and thanks for sharing your experiences!

    As context, I’m a fairly high level USPSA shooter and have spent almost all my handgun and competition time with red dots. I love dry fire. It’s meditative for me.

    I have never found a reason or need to run dot occluded in training.

    I do find myself getting dot focused if the dot is too bright or if I’m moving too slowly.

    Usually at MOVE NOW! speeds there’s no time to dot focus and I am hyper aware and processing of the targets so no opportunity to shift to dot focus from my usual target focus.

    I also take it that Max Michel and JJ Racaza are not occluded dot fans as an indication that it’s not a necessary training adjunct (for me).

    I’m kind of a “train like you fight” kind of guy so I never considered occluded dot practicing, I focused on the performance in dry and live and whatever my eyes were doing is whatever they were doing.

    As a training regimen, I like dry plate racks and Texas stars in various pattern engagements to train eye movement and target focus.



    If you look carefully, you can see my eyes/head leading the gun.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •