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Thread: POI Shift with Occluded Optic

  1. #31
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    POI Shift with Occluded Optic

    Playing with this now, in between dryfire reps. Aiming with my dominant eye, the occluded dot is always the same as the laser. However, aiming with my non-dominant eye, the occluded dot is a target width to the right of the laser.



    Also, the occluded dot was >0.25s slower for me than a non occluded dot on this 3.25s string.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 11-28-2022 at 11:24 PM.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  2. #32
    Oh Dremel, Dremel, Dremel JCN's Avatar
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    @Q5shooter
    @Clusterfrack
    @HCM

    Made a video for Q5shooter to try and explain why I donít like occluded optics and what Iím doing with my dominant eye.

    This may not work with cross dominant shooters but I suspect it would because when I shoot left sided carbine, the same properties hold.

    Target focus means focal plane of the target, not just stare at the target and ignore the dot.

    Currently Iím still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

  3. #33
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Bumping up this nugget of wisdom for emphasis. Good stuff.
    I think that is truly my issue. I was a pretty decent iron shooter before trying the dot and the fact that I was missing a target five yards away by 3-4 inches and at 25 yards completely wiffing the target by like feet was a real mystery til I started learning about phoria.

    I was trying to train around it and lost interest and went back to a non occluded optic. I could never make the Bindon Aiming concept work with an ACOG either.

    I am sure it is an issue that can be trained out with some work.

  4. #34
    Hammertime
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    So I just taped over my optic. I worked presentations with both eyes open, dominant only & non-dominant only. While the non-dominant eye has issues & requires work, I have not "seeing" what you are describing.
    I also found this is something I didn't notice at all visually until I was doing live fire and completely missing the target. In dry fire it is easy to convince yourself everything is lined up and indeed in one's brain it "looks" perfect. But it isn't. After the live fire reality check I could then go to dry and actually see the dot start to move laterally if I worked the muscles just so. It almost helps to have the pistol in some sort of rest so you know the aim is true and then move your head and eyes back and forth. I need to try again using the Wheeler bore laser simultaneous with an occluded optic as that would give great visual feedback for training.

  5. #35
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Glock View Post
    ... I need to try again using the Wheeler bore laser simultaneous with an occluded optic as that would give great visual feedback for training.
    I'll have to give this a try.

  6. #36
    @Clusterfrack
    Using the laser boresight really was a great idea to show the effects this would have in live fire if you switch to your non-dominant eye. It's strange, because every time I bring the gun up, it seems like it always goes to my dominant eye, but I guess that's one of the things about shooting in matches that I wasn't doing in dry fire... Awkward positions and stress. They cause the body to do unusual things.

    Also, the fact that you were slower in practice with the occluded dot could alone be reason enough to be wary of using the occlusion.

    @JCN
    I found your video to be extremely interesting. Of all the hours of videos I've watched about training transitions, I've never heard of switching your visual attention back to the dot for a moment as it approaches (on wide transitions) in order to gauge its relative position to the target then make corrections before switching focus back to the target. It makes perfect sense, and I appreciate the analogy to racing. I think a problem I have had is to shift my focus back to the dot as it approaches, just like you describe, but then it takes me too long to shift back to the target. That last step seems crucial for maintaining the speed of the transition, and I can definitely see how this whole process can be hampered - if not made impossible - by occluding the dot.

    @Doc_Glock
    It sounds like we've experienced the exact same thing. It's nice to know we're not alone in this world You mention that it's an issue that can be trained out with work, but I think there's much more low hanging fruit (at least for me) that would be better served training on than working on changing how my eyes align and take over simply for the benefit of being able to shoot occluded consistently.

    It seems like it can be a good training tool to throw into the mix every now and then (in dry fire only) just to make sure I'm not getting sucked into the dot without realizing it, but that may be the extent of its usefulness to me for the time being.

  7. #37
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Great video!

    I do a similar thing, but with a significant difference. Once my eyes are aimed and focused on the center of the target, I don't move them (other than to continue to track the target if there's motion). I pick up the dot, track it in peripheral vision, and break the shot when appropriate.

    A couple things about both eyes open and seeing the targets:

    1) I believe there are data showing that vision is faster and more precise with both eyes. @Glenn E. Meyer, anything from your field you can contribute?
    2) When the transitions are very short in angle, the next target can be hidden behind the optic. And even if it's a wide transition, the optic will occlude the target for a moment. I believe that's what slowed me down in the drill above when the optic was occluded. With a scoped long gun, I prefer to transition from R to L because my left eye isn't blocked by the scope.

    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    [MENTION=22565]Made a video for Q5shooter to try and explain why I donít like occluded optics and what Iím doing with my dominant eye.

    This may not work with cross dominant shooters but I suspect it would because when I shoot left sided carbine, the same properties hold.

    Target focus means focal plane of the target, not just stare at the target and ignore the dot.

    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  8. #38
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    If you compare visual performance with two eyes, vs. one eye - the standard figure is that two eye performance is the SQRT of Two (1.414) times the performance of one eye. At least that was the number on various tasks the last time, I read about this.
    Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; 11-29-2022 at 11:02 AM.

  9. #39
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Just saying... when Pistol-Forum puts its collective mind toward a shooting related topic, we get after it! Thanks everyone for a great discussion so far. Let's keep this thread alive as we explore further.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  10. #40
    Oh Dremel, Dremel, Dremel JCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I do a similar thing, but with a significant difference. Once my eyes are aimed and focused on the center of the target, I don't move them (other than to continue to track the target if there's motion). I pick up the dot, track it in peripheral vision, and break the shot when appropriate.
    So a couple things about that. I believe a quick glance at the dot for milliseconds is more effective and then bringing the eyes back to the target is better for a couple of reasons. Itís only a quick eye saccade and my eyes are back on target well before the dot gets there (so still accomplishing the terminal aspect of what youíre doing). What it allows me to do is calculate the velocity and rate of approach so I am more ready for it by the time it comes into my primary vision.

    The target isnít moving. I donít need to stare at it. And truly, even if I closed my eyes after the point where I track my velocity blanked out the last few hundred milliseconds I would still be able to hit the target with my eyes closed.

    Iím getting additional information earlier about the tracking that is very important for calculating velocity and approach timing.

    Basically, if someone were throwing a football in an arc, I would be tracking the football partially, and not just my hands.

    If I know where my hands are, I donít need to stare at them until the final approach.

    Same thing with a target. If I know where the target is in space, donít actually need to stare at it. Most of the time the target difficulty is not such that we need to make a microprecision shot at speed. So what is the point of staring at the target. As important as it is, itís really not that important.

    What I care about is how is my gun approaching the target and that information I want as the center of my focus for at least a split second so I can calculate the approach rate to preset my intended timing for the trigger.

    @Q5shooter it takes a LOT of practice to get efficient at doing this. Donít expect to be able to do it yet. Thereís a reason why some people can rip steel challenge and plate racks after practicing.
    Currently Iím still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

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