A new EDC TQ

[GOTURBACK]

I have just recieved my snakestaff etq wide and upon inspection I have detected a serious flaw in there design I will describe it below, on a normal cat tq the 1" internal constricting band attached to the windlass runs the entire length of the tq for allowing for unrestricted compression/tightening, on the ss etq wide the constricting band is only 5" long in it's entirety which is the fixed limit of it's constriction ability this is a serious shortcoming, I will not carry it after determining this.

[RevolverRob]

I have just recieved my snakestaff etq wide and upon inspection I have detected a serious flaw in there design I will describe it below, on a normal cat tq the 1" internal constricting band attached to the windlass runs the entire length of the tq for allowing for unrestricted compression/tightening, on the ss etq wide the constricting band is only 5" long in it's entirety which is the fixed limit of it's constriction ability this is a serious shortcoming, I will not carry it after determining this.

Interesting observation here and worth discussion I think - given that you should pull the tq very tight prior to cranking on the windlass, is the 5" length sufficient for compression? Obviously, more is better, because real world variables. But if I throw this on someone's leg and pull hard on that strap to secure it and crank, am I going to run out of cranking before I occlude blood flow?

@TGS @ben_flux_snakestaff

I think we have to bear in mind that the EDC TQ and TQ Wide are meant to be very compact and carried basically everywhere on a person. The compromise is that it may not be as effective as a CAT or SOFFT-W at occluding blood flow - we should all know that going in, because it is narrower in width and smaller in overall footprint. That's a compromise, but is it an effective compromise?

If you're carrying a TQ in a bag (like I do most days) there is no reason to not have a CAT or SOFFT-W (like I do in the bag sitting right next to me right now). But when I am sans bag, things are more compromised overall. I'm also not hardcore enough to wear an ankle FAK everywhere like some folks.

Of more concern and interest to me are the videos posted by @That Guy with respect to the clip and overall molded structure of the TQ bending when the TQ is turned tight and then not being able to secure the windlass. I'd definitely like some comments and discussion of this as well.

[ben_flux_snakestaff]

I have just recieved my snakestaff etq wide and upon inspection I have detected a serious flaw in there design I will describe it below, on a normal cat tq the 1" internal constricting band attached to the windlass runs the entire length of the tq for allowing for unrestricted compression/tightening, on the ss etq wide the constricting band is only 5" long in it's entirety which is the fixed limit of it's constriction ability this is a serious shortcoming, I will not carry it after determining this.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]100826[/ATT ACH]

Serious flaw eh? How so? The CAT has "unrestricted compression/tightening"? Have you tested this? Because if you do, you will find that you are not correct in both of your assertions.

First, every single TQ with a mechanical tightening device (typically a windlass, like that of the CAT and ETQ) out there has a limit on how tight that mechanical device can go.

Take your CAT, and put it on your largest limb, and keep twisting that windlass until you can't. What happened? Now do the same thing and put it on a foam roller, or similar semi compressible limb substitute. What happened in this test?

I have done all of this, many times, and I can tell you exactly what happens to the CAT and ETQ. The CATs constricting band, after a varying number of rotations, will twist and bunch up to the point that it will not be able to further constrict and/or lock into the C clip to be retained. The ETQ will have a very similar result.

Watch Andrew Fishers (one of the CoTCCC members) live video on his instagram (TraumaDaddy) he did on the ETQ, he would have brought this up if it were an issue.

We are working with NAR on a collaborative product - they congratulated us on what we are doing. They would not be working with us if they were not confident in our product.

It is good to critically evaluate gear (everything, really), but it is much better to test your assumptions.

Cheers

[GOTURBACK]

Serious flaw eh? How so? The CAT has "unrestricted compression/tightening"? Have you tested this? Because if you do, you will find that you are not correct in both of your assertions

First, every single TQ with a mechanical tightening device (typically a windlass, like that of the CAT and ETQ) out there has a limit on how tight that mechanical device can go.

Take your CAT, and put it on your largest limb, and keep twisting that windlass until you can't. What happened? Now do the same thing and put it on a foam roller, or similar semi compressible limb substitute. What happened in this test?

I have done all of this, many times, and I can tell you exactly what happens to the CAT and ETQ. The CATs constricting band, after a varying number of rotations, will twist and bunch up to the point that it will not be able to further constrict and/or lock into the C clip to be retained. The ETQ will have a very similar result.

Watch Andrew Fishers (one of the CoTCCC members) live video on his instagram (TraumaDaddy) he did on the ETQ, he would have brought this up if it were an issue.

We are working with NAR on a collaborative product - they congratulated us on what we are doing. They would not be working with us if they were not confident in our product.

It is good to critically evaluate gear (everything, really), but it is much better to test your assumptions.

Cheers

Hi Ben,
After posting that review, I determined that I had possibly overstepped my lane, and was not fair to you or snakestaff. I wanted to edit my post for a more reasonable opinion but was unable to. There were things I noticed that I was concerned with. I hope for more discussion t&e and the continued evolution of your products.

[ben_flux_snakestaff]

Interesting observation here and worth discussion I think - given that you should pull the tq very tight prior to cranking on the windlass, is the 5" length sufficient for compression? Obviously, more is better, because real world variables. But if I throw this on someone's leg and pull hard on that strap to secure it and crank, am I going to run out of cranking before I occlude blood flow?

@TGS @ben_flux_snakestaff

I think we have to bear in mind that the EDC TQ and TQ Wide are meant to be very compact and carried basically everywhere on a person. The compromise is that it may not be as effective as a CAT or SOFFT-W at occluding blood flow - we should all know that going in, because it is narrower in width and smaller in overall footprint. That's a compromise, but is it an effective compromise?

If you're carrying a TQ in a bag (like I do most days) there is no reason to not have a CAT or SOFFT-W (like I do in the bag sitting right next to me right now). But when I am sans bag, things are more compromised overall. I'm also not hardcore enough to wear an ankle FAK everywhere like some folks.

Of more concern and interest to me are the videos posted by @That Guy with respect to the clip and overall molded structure of the TQ bending when the TQ is turned tight and then not being able to secure the windlass. I'd definitely like some comments and discussion of this as well.

As far as the Refuge Medical video goes - I do not believe he was trying to do a hit piece, but he did absolutely misuse the product. Andrew Fisher/Trauma Daddy has reviewed the video and agreed. His comment should be able to be found on the video, I think he responded to one of my comments there.

It took me over a hundred applications to replicate his issue, and I was trying very hard every time. This occupied me for a week straight around Thanksgiving when the video came out, as I took it very seriously.

I was about to give up, when it finally happened! After tons and tons of trying and investigating, I caused the failure, and then found the cause of the failure.

On the ETQ wide, if you do not initially pull the strap at least moderately tight, and the TQ is loose when you begin to twist the windlass, it can cause this failure. This will make ANY TQ fail, just ask Andrew Fisher, or watch his instagram live on the ETQ, where he talks about this regarding other TQs.

The second way of making it fail is after using it multiple times, if you do not reset the hook and loop near the windlass (meaning flatten it out from its used, twisted/folded state), you can cause this failure. This took me many, many applications to make happen, and the tighter you pull the strap, the less likely this will ever be an issue.

So, use it right, just like any other TQ, and reset it after practicing with it, and it will work every single time.

I challenge anyone to reproduce this issue on the first application, or on an ETQ with a SHOWN reset, as it comes from the factory, with PROPERLY tightening the strap. I will reward you, as lives depend on this item.

We are making rolling tweaks to decrease the likelihood of this ever happening, but because it can only happen when misused, or used and not reset (also misuse), this is not a real cause for concern. And finally, this cannot happen on the 1" ETQ.

[ben_flux_snakestaff]

Hi Ben,
After posting that review, I determined that I had possibly overstepped my lane, and was not fair to you or snakestaff. I wanted to edit my post for a more reasonable opinion but was unable to. There were things I noticed that I was concerned with. I hope for more discussion t&e and the continued evolution of your products.

Dude, no worries at all. Hard to convey tone/emotion via text. Evaluation and discussion is great! As well as continued evolution. If there were a major flaw, we would send fixed replacements to everyone who had purchased them, and ask people to mark and designate the older ones as trainers.

We will continue to improve it where ever we can, and even if some of the critiques are not valid, some will be, and will help us perfect the device.

Thanks brother!

[ben_flux_snakestaff]

I don't know if that everyone tag will work or if it is allowed, mods, please delete if not kosher.

I am sorry I fell behind on this thread, it has been insane. Today is insanely busy as well, but because you guys were awesome enough to tag me, I have now caught up on the comments.

As an update/general response:

We are finally back up and running, we have set up a new, very high quality manufacturer. Costs went up, but that is absolutely worth it. We are switching to a better hook and loop that will fray less with time (although the fraying never caused an issue, I always carry torture test models, and continue to test them).

We are making rolling tweaks to continuously improve the product in any way we can. We will never stop, nothing is perfect. We have yet to find any serious issue though, and it has now been tested by many SOF groups, as well as LE and civilians.

We QC the TQs and package them, and developed them ourselves, but we do not have the infrastructure to make them, they are made by a high end sew shop in the industry in the west.

As far as not selling product and thus not bringing in money as a "marketing strategy" goes - well, no offense, but that is an absolutely moronic marketing strategy. If we don't sell, we don't bring in money, all while our competitors have time to catch up. So if anyone does this on an innovative product, they are just stupid. Besides being generally bad business, it is contrary to our goal, get TQs in as many pockets as possible. The same can be said about Flux. I wish I made more than $45K a year, the average person in my job makes more than 10X that. Flux could bring in $10M tonight if we just had the product, so you can bet your butt I have been working very hard to change that for the last couple years. Quality production in the US when you don't already have good MFGs is very difficult, but we are solving that.

We have increased production more than 500%, and will continue to do produce more and more until we have trouble selling them.

Let me know if you have any more questions! Best to tag me. Cheers

[ben_flux_snakestaff]

And please keep the feedback coming!!!

[BillSWPA]

And please keep the feedback coming!!!

I appreciate the continued engagement and response to feedback, and will keep an eye on the website for in-stock product. The difficulties of introducing a new product are understood.

[Paul Blackburn]

This is why I rarely buy new products right after they're released into the wild because issues do crop up. Within 2-3 years we get gen2 and gen3 models that address the issues.