Best Hard-Use AR15s in 2022?

[SwampDweller]

Part of the "problem" with 2022 is the multitude of different AR15s used by the various government entities, and the lack of one uniform TDP. It's not 2005, and almost everyone besides "Big Army" is using something other than the Colt M4 TDP....so you can't really apply mid-GWOT rules of thumb to current day. I write "Big Army", because the M4 in the configuration you think of when writing "M4 TDP" hasn't been the primary arm in use by USASOC for years, as an example. What traditional M4s are in use today are largely legacy guns that are holdovers from older purchases 5, 10, even 15 years ago.....generally not something being actively procured. On the military side, it's also been years since Crane did their study and proved that midlength systems are superior to carbine systems. So, I guess what I'm saying is that adhering to the M4 TDP will get you a functional gun......but you can do better, and virtually everyone is.

Colt, Geissele, Daniel Defense, LWRC, BCM, and HK are all in large scale use by institutional users in various configurations that do not adhere to the M4 TDP. Many of the components in regular use today did not even exist when that M4 TDP advice became a thing, or even in 2014 when DocGKR made that statement. The more important thing is to pick out what rifle setup suits your needs, then pick quality components; a 10.3" Daniel Defense barrel from 2017 is not the equal of the Daniel Defense 10.3" barrel in 2019, for instance.

I remember that Crane study. I always had a few questions about it and how it would translate into our world. They were using M855A1 ammunition, which is loaded not too far below proof pressures, not typical 5.56 NATO spec. I have to wonder how the test would've turned out if they were using M855 Green Tip. Moreover, in the civilian world where we have a lot of .223 (I've had good luck with PMC Bronze 55gr brass case and even KAC has said they use it as test fire ammo), I wonder if such a beast would be undergassed, particularly in less-than-ideal conditions, especially cold weather.

Part of the "problem" with 2022 is the multitude of different AR15s used by the various government entities

I'm aware of the URGI as referenced in the Crane study, but what other different ARs are used?

Colt, Geissele, Daniel Defense, LWRC, BCM, and HK are all in large scale use by institutional users in various configurations

What institutional users are using DD, LWRC, and BCM? I'm aware off DD and Geissele rails being used, but not complete rifles or uppers. I'm kind of out of the loop on what's in use by the "high speed low drag" guys in terms of manufacturer of rifles/uppers.

I've also heard here and there about LMT being in use? I know commercial LMTs use semi auto carriers and carbine buffers, but if that's what they intended for them to run with and they're reliable, I guess that's not a big deal. I seem to remember long ago, I think around 2009, there was a big hubub about LMT using MIM carrier keys, but that may not be the case now.

ETA: I really like the Colt 6920 SOCOM available now, with the 14.5" pinned/welded and SOCOM profile barrel, however I'm not sure if today's 6920s are as good as my 2009 "RESTRICTED" marked one with all the military inspection markings and such.

As far as midlength vs carbine length, as long as carbine length is reliable including under hard use, I'm good with that. I've often wondered if midlength isn't as tolerant of lower pressured .223 (though I draw the line at steel case, I'm talking good quality .223 pressure loads)

I also am still kind of partial to the quad rail and I do like the DD M4A1's quad rail and 14.5" pinned/welded barrel.

[BWT]

I’ve shot BCM rifles almost exclusively. Completely reliable. I had one magazine give issues with a green follower releasing rounds early and causing the cartridge to have the bullet jammed back into the casing.

I replaced the followers and other than one stuck steel case no issues. Thousands of rounds.

BCM knows how to make solid guns. I’ve heard good things about Colt, SOLGW, DD, and KAC, etc. but I’ve seen no malfunctions in mine shooting the cheapest ammo over probably 8-10 years now.

I had a Sionics lower that had one rear take down pin that wasn’t properly installed (I was able to fix it with a flat head screw driver by depressing the plunger, getting the pin back in, and then rotating so the retaining pin stuck in the rear.

It was enough that I form 1’d a different lower. I just set it aside and haven’t ever used it. I saw no issues but that is what happened.

ETA:

I’d go with a gun with an awesome warranty for hard use.

[Super77]

It's interesting to no longer really see NOveske pop up on these threads. They were de rigueur when I first got into ARs umpteen years ago, along with Colt, who supposedly has issues now too. Daniel Defense is nice but sort of started using weird furniture. The one company that's constantly been putting out awesome products that conform to my sensibilities is BCM. If I didn't have lifetimes worth of ARs in my safe and needed another one, I'd probably go with BCM.

[SwampDweller]

It's interesting to no longer really see NOveske pop up on these threads. They were de rigueur when I first got into ARs umpteen years ago, along with Colt, who supposedly has issues now too. Daniel Defense is nice but sort of started using weird furniture. The one company that's constantly been putting out awesome products that conform to my sensibilities is BCM. If I didn't have lifetimes worth of ARs in my safe and needed another one, I'd probably go with BCM.

I was just thinking about Noveske. Word among more in-depth AR people is that they have hogged out their gas ports and have kind of gone downhill since John Noveske died. I don’t know if this is true but it’s popularity has definitely fallen off. They don’t seem to make what I used to list for, which was the Light Recce Basic.

[Wake27]

I remember that Crane study. I always had a few questions about it and how it would translate into our world. They were using M855A1 ammunition, which is loaded not too far below proof pressures, not typical 5.56 NATO spec. I have to wonder how the test would've turned out if they were using M855 Green Tip. Moreover, in the civilian world where we have a lot of .223 (I've had good luck with PMC Bronze 55gr brass case and even KAC has said they use it as test fire ammo), I wonder if such a beast would be undergassed, particularly in less-than-ideal conditions, especially cold weather.


I'm aware of the URGI as referenced in the Crane study, but what other different ARs are used?



What institutional users are using DD, LWRC, and BCM? I'm aware off DD and Geissele rails being used, but not complete rifles or uppers. I'm kind of out of the loop on what's in use by the "high speed low drag" guys in terms of manufacturer of rifles/uppers.

I've also heard here and there about LMT being in use? I know commercial LMTs use semi auto carriers and carbine buffers, but if that's what they intended for them to run with and they're reliable, I guess that's not a big deal. I seem to remember long ago, I think around 2009, there was a big hubub about LMT using MIM carrier keys, but that may not be the case now.

ETA: I really like the Colt 6920 SOCOM available now, with the 14.5" pinned/welded and SOCOM profile barrel, however I'm not sure if today's 6920s are as good as my 2009 "RESTRICTED" marked one with all the military inspection markings and such.

As far as midlength vs carbine length, as long as carbine length is reliable including under hard use, I'm good with that. I've often wondered if midlength isn't as tolerant of lower pressured .223 (though I draw the line at steel case, I'm talking good quality .223 pressure loads)

I also am still kind of partial to the quad rail and I do like the DD M4A1's quad rail and 14.5" pinned/welded barrel.

Just by mentioning it, I think you’re overthinking the midlength in cold weather. Properly made, it’ll be fine. Pairing a reduced size gas port with an H3 or H4 buffer in extreme cold (like why the fuck are you outside cold) may be problematic. But the type of lube you’re using may very well become a factor before mid vs carbine does.

Colt has done nothing special for a while. Again, it’ll work. But their CS is known trash and if this were anything besides an AR or 1911 debate, a company with their CS record wouldn’t even be considered by most.

BCM will get you a flared magwell, their furniture (among the best), their CH, potentially an improved or at least specific muzzle device of your choosing, an extended light weight MCMR rail (why do you like quad? Have you ever used anything else?), an improved GI trigger, QD endplate, QD mount with the MCMR, and potentially an enhanced profile barrel that just makes more sense for most people than gov. Or go with their SOCOM if you want that heavy profile. And better CS, a company that is more responsive to their customers, and really a more gun friendly company. If you get the MK2 upper, you’ll actually have an improved upper receiver.

The more I’m involved with these discussions, the more I look at Colt as the iron sights pistol or worse, the revolver. It was good a long time ago but the future is now. No wait, the future was like 2016. Move past the antiques.


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[theJanitor]

I've had a few Noveske's and one in 7.62. They were all superbly accurate with stainless barrels, but those barrels were heavy, and I didn't want to shoot them super hard and fast due to the steel.

While I've heard from people I trust that they aren't the same after John's death, I think its the fact that other makers have been able to close the gap on accuracy, with chrome lined barrels, in lighter profiles, at a much lower cost, than before. It lessens the Noveske mystique, IMO

14.5 Colt socom barrels, Criterion (which I'm currently favoring), etc. shoot so darn well, that spending $400+ on a stainless noveske barrel isn't worth it.

[Wake27]

I was just thinking about Noveske. Word among more in-depth AR people is that they have hogged out their gas ports and have kind of gone downhill since John Noveske died. I don’t know if this is true but it’s popularity has definitely fallen off. They don’t seem to make what I used to list for, which was the Light Recce Basic.

My OAF Noveske colab gun ~ 2016 had the chrome flaking out of the barrel around 3k rounds. That may be what you referenced earlier with BCM, I’ve never seen that complaint from them but I had a long thread on M4C about the Noveske. They were good about handling it but replaced it with the most violently shooting 5.56 barrel I’ve ever used. I was shooting with Surf a lot around this time and struggled all through a one day class with my accuracy while pushing splits. Finally I gave it to him, and I remember him saying something along the lines of him almost missing the target so that validated my sad feels. I switched my backup, a BCM, and immediately all was right with the world. Oh and their receivers were notoriously tight. They only mags I’ve ever been able to get to drop free from even my Gen 1 was GI (gross) or PMAG M3.

I think I had to pay shipping to get it there which was about $100 and a bummer that they didn’t reimburse me for their problem.

Both of my factory Noveskes were beautiful. But they I sold them because they didn’t do anything for my purposes that my BCMs couldn’t do as well if not better for $1k less. The OAF lower is still my primary though.


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[Rick R]

As far as I know, only Colt is able to use the TDP in the manufacture of their commercial rifles, and FN is not allowed to even produce their commercial ARs in the same plant as their military contract rifles using the TDP.

Thank you.

I’ve read similar before but when I’ve spoken directly with actual FN employees on a couple occasions they were amused at the thought that FN has separate assembly lines much less “plants” for government contract and commercial production. They assured me that the parts all come out of the same bins and get assembled by the same people with the exception of the NFA bits depending on the work orders du’ jour. FWIW My sole factory built AR is an early FN “Tactical” and it’s been flawless

[TGS]

I remember that Crane study. I always had a few questions about it and how it would translate into our world. They were using M855A1 ammunition, which is loaded not too far below proof pressures, not typical 5.56 NATO spec. I have to wonder how the test would've turned out if they were using M855 Green Tip. Moreover, in the civilian world where we have a lot of .223 (I've had good luck with PMC Bronze 55gr brass case and even KAC has said they use it as test fire ammo), I wonder if such a beast would be undergassed, particularly in less-than-ideal conditions, especially cold weather.


I'm aware of the URGI as referenced in the Crane study, but what other different ARs are used?



What institutional users are using DD, LWRC, and BCM? I'm aware off DD and Geissele rails being used, but not complete rifles or uppers.

Great questions.

Off the top of my head:

USSS: KAC SR16
DSS: Daniel Defense Mk18 (not just a RIS II on a Colt shorty)
PFPA: LWRC M6
USMC: HK416 (M4 only for service/support, likely a financial decision to use up leftover M4s)
CBP: legacy M4s floating around, but some BCM 11.5" guns and the Geissele 11.5" was just announced as their new official rifle

That's just off the top of my head after 10pm. I'm sure there's more I'm either not thinking of or just haven't kept up with.

As for midlength guns, yes and no. It's all a function of gas port distance, gas port size, and barrel length after the port. It just needs to be balanced correctly for the task at hand. That's where the importance of doing your product/component research comes in. If you want a 14.5" midlength, you'll get an excellent gun if you buy a BCM...but you'll be sorely disappointed with the same gun if you exclusively shoot cheap garbage Russian ammo. In that case, you'd be better served by jumping up to the 16" midlength, or buying a 14.5" midlength from a different manufacturer with a larger gas port.

[SwampDweller]

(why do you like quad? Have you ever used anything else?)

Admittedly, I have not. I suppose I am open to it if I can find one that appeals to me and has the kind of track record I'm looking for. Right now, the ones that catch my eye the most are the Daniel Defense ones, specifically the RIS III. It seems like a logical progression. I see that the DD M4 RIS III is 16" with a CHF CL barrel, midlength gas system, and pinned gas block (something I also prefer for peace of mind).

The URGI would be nice too, but those are no longer available, at least the way they used to be. I remember when they were being sold in 2018 using Colt uppers, DD barrels, and the Geissele Mk16 rail system. I'm not sure where G gets their barrels now, and the uppers aren't in stock anyway.

As far as Colt being a revolver or 1911 compared to modern options, I'm not sure I'd go that far. It's still a 16" (or 14.5") 5.56mm semi automatic carbine feeding from the same 30 round mags, and it will put bullets where they need to go reliably. Not saying there aren't others that do it better, but at their base they have the same capabilities ignoring accessories. In any case, really all I want is a red dot, white light, and sling as far as accessories.