Best Hard-Use AR15s in 2022?

[SwampDweller]

Back in the days of legends like Pat Rodgers we had instructors putting out what ARs they saw run the most reliable in high round count carbine classes, like Pat with BCM. Seems like BCM has kind of slipped from their previous top spot in peoples minds, but I wonder what the big shot instructors recommend these days?

[trajiiic]

Even though I've assembled all 3 of my ARs from parts, I still recommend complete ARs to people new to the community. This is the typical advice I give.

Budget: Aero > PSA Premium
Mid-Tier: BCM/Colt/FN
Fancy: Daniel Defense

That being said, a friend recently went for an IWI ZION-15 on my recommendation for his budget after looking at Aero options. I feel like this was a better purchase than a new Colt but maybe not as good as a BCM.

Anything above $1,300 for a bare bones AR is not something I'm ever going to recommend for a 1st/only rifle unless they just have "fancy" budget. Much more value in having funds for 1,000 rounds of ammo to practice with.

[ASH556]

The real answer is Geissele with a Colt Barrel. Hard to argue against a Colt Trooper as a factory gun. I like DD's flared magwells. I've had a 6920 that was a little tight in the magwell region.

Noveske's been dead since Johnny passed.
BCM is good overall, but I've found it hard to get complete guns in the configuration I wanted from them, always out of stock.
Centurion is the same as BCM. Good product, but tough to get.
Daniel Defense jumped the shark about 10 years ago. I'm sure their guns still work ok, but pricing is high and some of their features are not my preference.

I think a Geissele Duty Rifle is tough to argue against for what you get; especially if purchased on one of their holiday deals.

But whatever gun you get, put a Colt barrel (preferably a SOCOM) in it and a majority of your problems will disappear.

[HCM]

Back in the days of legends like Pat Rodgers we had instructors putting out what ARs they saw run the most reliable in high round count carbine classes, like Pat with BCM. Seems like BCM has kind of slipped from their previous top spot in peoples minds, but I wonder what the big shot instructors recommend these days?

Kyle DeFoor runs BCM guns. Like Pat he has a relationship with BCM, but like Pat I'm confident he would not continue that relationship if they didn't perform.

More significant is U.S. CBP, which includes the U.S. Border Patrol using BCM rifles and uppers for the past several years. CBP is the largest law enforcement agency in North America and the USBP in particular actually uses / carries carbines more than anyone in the U.S. outside DOD. USBP service = "hard use."

One correction. BCM was never the "top spot" as in THE best thing available vs KAC or LMT. What made BCM popular was at the time, it was the only option that actually was "just as good" as Colt, but also offered more modern / desirable configurations and had better availability. Historically, availability of Colts was an issue. They've had periods of time where they were Colt's were unavailable due to focus on GOV contract fulfilment (legitimate) or Colt playing games with sales to civilians.

I'm an "uncle Pat" alumni but for cultural and logistical reasons, "high round count carbine classes" simply are not the "thing" they used to be.

[HCM]

I'm not implying that HK is building rifles to the "M4" TDP. They're obviously building M27s according to the HK TDP. Just like FN isn't building M4s to Colt's TDP. FN is building M4s to their own TDP.



From what I understand, HK doesn't use chrome lining. Do you know if this is true?


As long as people realize it's a pretty high standard. I find it ironic critics lambast the M4 as being the minimum standard, yet ignore the fact the highly touted M27 falls in the same category.

(It's obvious to me, you are not one of those critics)



To be clear, I don't think companies like BCM & SOLGW are turning out inferior ARs.



They just don't build cars like they used to. For that, I'm eternally grateful!

From the technical dives into C158 versus other alloys that I've seen, there isn't much improvement. There's evidence that other alloys have their own downsides. But, there's evidence that some geometric changes show improvement in longevity, such as found in the KAC bolt.

I've also seen arguments that there's little advantage in extending bolt life because on the average, bolts and barrels have a similar round count before needing to be replaced.

I don't hold to the idea ARs cannot or should not be improved. What I'm saying is, the current M4 as built by Colt isn't objectively as outdated as critics would have us believe. Colt ARs have good, solid bones. (I have no first hand knowledge about FN ARs. I assume they're delivering a fine rifle to our military.)

True, Colt doesn't offer as many configurations as others. Whether or not the configurations offered by other companies are better or more innovative is subjective.

HK doesn't use chrome lining in MR 556 barrels but most HK 416 barrels, including M27 barrels are chrome lined. The Chrome lining is more a requirement from customers because that's the way they've always done it than because HK feels it's necessary.

AFAIK the HK 416 and 433 submissions for the last German MIL contract were nitride CHF barrels with no chrome lining. The Haenel submission which won then got bogged down in patent infringement issues also used a Nitride CHF barrel.

The one thing they all have in common is they use proprietary steel from French steel maker Aubert & Duval. A nitride CHF barrel made with Duval steel and an HK style taper/squeeze bore has shown the potential to provide usable service life between 50,000 and 100,000 rounds depending on firing schedule. Those barrels aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. Life cycle costs can mitigate the price of entry though.

[zeleny]

The one thing they all have in common is they use proprietary steel from French steel maker Aubert & Duval. A nitride CHF barrel made with Duval steel and an HK style taper/squeeze bore has shown the potential to provide usable service life between 50,000 and 100,000 rounds depending on firing schedule. Those barrels aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. Life cycle costs can mitigate the price of entry though.

It’s worth noting that Manurhin MR73 revolvers are made from Aubert & Duval steel.

[Jim Watson]

The one thing they all have in common is they use proprietary steel from French steel maker Aubert & Duval. A nitride CHF barrel made with Duval steel and an HK style taper/squeeze bore has shown the potential to provide usable service life between 50,000 and 100,000 rounds depending on firing schedule. Those barrels aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. Life cycle costs can mitigate the price of entry though.

Tell me about a HK squeeze bore. How much taper or choke does it have?

I daresay the proprietary specifications of the steel are more important than the steel mill.
P.O. Ackley used to have to explain that to people who wanted a Timken barrel.

[HCM]

Tell me about a HK squeeze bore. How much taper or choke does it have?

I daresay the proprietary specifications of the steel are more important than the steel mill.
P.O. Ackley used to have to explain that to people who wanted a Timken barrel.

No idea. you'll have to ask HK. But I know they have it and it's a thing in Europe in some hunting / precision rifles too. HK isn't the only one who can do it. DD and FN have done it for Hodge Defense barrels.

The squeeze bore is why HK (and Hodge Defense) barrels tend to produce higher velocity than comparable barrels. It tends to aid accuracy as well. The squeeze bore in combination with materials choices- and CHF are why those same barrels normally have about double the useful service life vs convectional barrels.

It's Duval's proprietary steel not the place it's made. If Duval made 4150CMV it would be just like any other 4150CMV.

Similarly FN's higher end(better than TDP) AR barrels made of "FN Machine gun steel" are also a proprietary steel FN uses in... their Machine gun barrels. They make TDP spec 4150CMV barrels too.

[HCM]

The real answer is Geissele with a Colt Barrel. Hard to argue against a Colt Trooper as a factory gun. I like DD's flared magwells. I've had a 6920 that was a little tight in the magwell region.

Noveske's been dead since Johnny passed.
BCM is good overall, but I've found it hard to get complete guns in the configuration I wanted from them, always out of stock.
Centurion is the same as BCM. Good product, but tough to get.
Daniel Defense jumped the shark about 10 years ago. I'm sure their guns still work ok, but pricing is high and some of their features are not my preference.

I think a Geissele Duty Rifle is tough to argue against for what you get; especially if purchased on one of their holiday deals.

But whatever gun you get, put a Colt barrel (preferably a SOCOM) in it and a majority of your problems will disappear.

Geissele started strong but their QC issues with barrels and receivers changed that. A Geissele rifle or upper is a crap shoot right now. Hopefully they will get back to their prior QC levels but with the amount of .GOV contract work they have recently taken on I'm not holding my breath.

Colt barrels are fine, but there are better (more accurate / more durable) barrels out there. What ever DD's stylistic choices, the barrel and BCG are the heart of the rifle. Microbest is the standard for BCG, but when it comes to barrels DD CHF is hard to beat.

PS: IME The best strategy for anyone wanting either BCM or LMT is to snag complete uppers and lowers in the configurations you want.

[Default.mp3]

Tell me about a HK squeeze bore. How much taper or choke does it have?

I daresay the proprietary specifications of the steel are more important than the steel mill.
P.O. Ackley used to have to explain that to people who wanted a Timken barrel.

FWIW, on the FN side:

Looks like you guys pretty much have the concept. The bore gets slightly smaller as it moves to the muzzle end of the barrel.
I did not come up with the concept and it is not new. So why have you not seen taper bores in the AR platform before?? Probably because using hammer forged barrels is a fairly new thing in the AR rifles. Taper bore is something that is only realistically done by the hammer forging process. The mandrel that is used to put the rifling in the barrel is slightly tapered and this leave the tapered dimension in the barrels as the forging machine beats the blank around the mandrel.
So what does it offer you? Taper bore gives you a slight boost in velocity over a non-taper bore barrel and it help negate any potential accuracy issues caused by chroming the bore since it is not always a consistent thickness.
Taper bore does not extend the life of the barrel our barrels last longer because they are hammer forged and made from a different spec material that was engineered for machine guns. Hammer forging work hardens the material and the chrome is thicker than a normal barrel. The barrel steel is the same used on the MAG58, 240, M249, MK46, and MK48 machine guns it is also the same barrel material and process used on the 1/2moa sniper rifles FN won the FBI contract with and that are still in service. The FN SPR sniper rifles use hammer forged hard chrome lined taper bore barrels to get ½ moa accuracy and this is the same barrel specs and processes I have done to my barrels.

Source: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...5608#post25608

The mandrel is about 6in long and the barrels is dragged across the mandrel and beaten around it to form the rifling. Only the last 3in of the mandrels are tapered so only the 3 in of the barrel get the taper bore it is not across the whole bore. the rest of the barrel gets its forming from the first 3in of the mandrel so it is strait. I know it is not required to have the taper to form the rifling since I've spoke with Daniel Defense about their barrels and they said they do not taper bore they use a 6in strait mandrel.

Even if the taper came for other reasons it has the ancillary benefits of a slight increase in velocity and helps with accuracy.

Any of the processes used to rifle a barrel can yield excellent results or poor results it depends on the knowledge and attention to detail the shop takes while making them. I have visited the barrel shop in Herstal Belgium and in Columbia SC and can say I was extremely impressed with their barrels and processes every barrel get bore scoped and inspected at every stage of the manufacturing process. I truly believe they are some of the best barrels in the world and I have seen it prove itself out through all the testing I got to witness.

Source: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...5624#post25624