Guards in self-defense?

[Mister X]

but Thompson presents it more as a fluid, alive, active, adaptive concept for lack of a better description, rather than some default guard. That’s my take at least.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

[Mark D]

but Thompson presents it more as a fluid, alive, active, adaptive concept for lack of a better description, rather than some default guard. That’s my take at least.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

Thanks - that's a great video. I didn't realize that some of Geoff's work on was youtube. After watching that one, I found a full hour vid of his fence methodology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETLWajTDzvE

Side note - I think it's easy to look back at this stuff and think it's basic and obvious, but in the late 80's and 90's, it was pretty revolutionary for a lot of martial artists.

[Mark D]

Another point he hits on in the video is covering being effective, but most of the other common defensive measures utilized in combat sport not really being all that practical in self-protection due to the close distance and lack of a reactionary gap. That seems to be a pretty common perspective with many Combatives type and similar instructors who want to give people some usable skills very quickly.

One example… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvdbjzVXN4g

In general, how relevant and practical are things like parrying, slips, blocking, bobbing, weaving, footwork when defending against punches in the most likely self-defense situations?

I agree whole heartedly with this video, with two minor caveats.

1. I have used a traditional karate rising block three times against folks swinging impact weapons in an overhand strike. The rising block worked great, every time. Saved me from serious injury. For almost any other incoming strikes , I much prefer to cover up, use an elbow shield, etc.

2. Based on personal experience, I think some knowledge of footwork is handy when fighting in open spaces. Parking lots come to mind.

I don't recall ever seeing someone slip, parry, or bob and weave successfully in a self defense situation. I'm sure it's been done, but I think it's pretty rare and takes a high level of skill.

[Mister X]

Thanks - that's a great video. I didn't realize that some of Geoff's work on was youtube. After watching that one, I found a full hour vid of his fence methodology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETLWajTDzvE

Side note - I think it's easy to look back at this stuff and think it's basic and obvious, but in the late 80's and 90's, it was pretty revolutionary for a lot of martial artists.

I’m not sure The Fence could still be considered revolutionary today. I’ve come across quite a few articles and videos and everyone seems to have their own take on it.

Here’s one by the late Paul Gomez…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k8lVBmJj9ow

His viewpoint seems to be more of the fence being a relatively specific default posture(essentially a passive guard), making a lot of the same points and similar to what I see Tony Blauer doing, which doesn’t appear to me to align very well with how Geoff Thompson defines the fence. Not that there isn’t validity in those methods, because I think there most definitely is, it’s just different and I actually see more commonality between Iain Abernethy’s perspective on The Fence and Thompsons than with many of the others. I might be missing something.

No one person possesses infallible knowledge on all things, so I’ve never been a big fan of having go-to gurus. and there’s not really much new under the sun, just rediscovery’s and different ways of presenting it. I do get a bit uncomfortable when instructors start taking in absolutes, and Iain does seem to do that a fair bit in the OP video in my opinion. It’s a business like any other, and Instructors are always trying to find a unique niche and sell you on their methods and people are reassured by confidence and certainty.

Some related material I was watching earlier you might find interesting…

From Active self-protection…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RjClyjQVi_o

From Ryan Hoover…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZpWka_pa6U

From Fight Science…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NqCj10Zjaxw

[Mister X]

but Thompson presents it more as a fluid, alive, active, adaptive concept for lack of a better description, rather than some default guard. That’s my take at least.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

@Cecil Burch just wondering why this was edited. Thanks.

[Cecil Burch]

@Cecil Burch just wondering why this was edited. Thanks.

Because I’m a moron.

I MEANT to reply, but instead of hitting reply with quote, I clicked edit post. All on me and there was nothing wrong with your post. I’m just a dumbass

[Mister X]

Because I’m a moron.

I MEANT to reply, but instead of hitting reply with quote, I clicked edit post. All on me and there was nothing wrong with your post. I’m just a dumbass

No problem, I thought maybe I had violated the rules somehow.

The original post was…

“Here’s a clip from Geoff Thompson about the fence. I see a lot of common ground with some of the points Iain made. I’ve seen several videos presenting the fence as some static, default position, but Thompson presents it more as a fluid, alive adaptive concept for lack of a better description, rather than some default guard. That’s my take at least.”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

Would love to get your thoughts about it.

[Cecil Burch]

No problem, I thought maybe I had violated the rules somehow.

The original post was…

“Here’s a clip from Geoff Thompson about the fence. I see a lot of common ground with some of the points Iain made. I’ve seen several videos presenting the fence as some static, default position, but Thompson presents it more as a fluid, alive adaptive concept for lack of a better description, rather than some default guard. That’s my take at least.”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

Would love to get your thoughts about it.

That right there is the problem with the original video. No guard in combat sports is static. They all are alive and fluid. No boxer stays in an arbitrary guard position throughout a fight. It shows that Abernathy either is ignoring reality, or has not put the time in to understand what he is critiquing.

[Mister X]

That right there is the problem with the original video. No guard in combat sports is static. They all are alive and fluid. No boxer stays in an arbitrary guard position throughout a fight. It shows that Abernathy either is ignoring reality, or has not put the time in to understand what he is critiquing.

Iain primarily uses the word “passive”, contrasting it with the hands being “active”. I used static in reference to some other videos I watched, maybe not the best choice of words. Two MMA Fighters squaring off at long range, the hands are held up in passive guards. A boxer throwing multiple consecutive jabs, the jabbing hand is considered currently active, while the rear hand at the chin is momentarily considered passive. A hockey player grabbing the jersey with one hand and hitting with the other, both hands would be considered active. At least that’s my interpretation of what he’s saying.

He’s making a distinction between fighting/combat sports/sparring and self-protection/self-defense, with an assertion that a guard is extremely relevant to the former, but not so much the latter in a specific context. I think that perspective is valid if self-defense scenarios would unfold how it seems he assumes they pretty much all will and according to what he believes is the most effective way to deal with them. The issue is both of those points are debatable. My opinion is that he would be right some of the time, but not all of the time.

[Cecil Burch]

Iain primarily uses the word “passive”, contrasting it with the hands being “active”. I used static in reference to some other videos I watched, maybe not the best choice of words. Two MMA Fighters squaring off at long range, the hands are held up in passive guards. A boxer throwing multiple consecutive jabs, the jabbing hand is considered currently active, while the rear hand at the chin is momentarily considered passive. A hockey player grabbing the jersey with one hand and hitting with the other, both hands would be considered active. At least that’s my interpretation of what he’s saying.

He’s making a distinction between fighting/combat sports/sparring and self-protection/self-defense, with an assertion that a guard is extremely relevant to the former, but not so much the latter in a specific context. I think that perspective is valid if self-defense scenarios would unfold how it seems he assumes they pretty much all will and according to what he believes is the most effective way to deal with them. The issue is both of those points are debatable. My opinion is that he would be right some of the time, but not all of the time.

He is playing semantic games that have no relevance to the situation. There is no passive hands in combat sports. Period. There is constant adjustment and movement, all based on the movements and actions of the other fighter. Exac.ty what happens in a self-defense encounter. There are literally tons of videos of actual real world scenarios where there is ongoing action and depending on the training of the participants their hands and arms are "in a guard" of some kind and a momentary pause in actual movement of the hands. Does that suddenly make them combat sports fights? No, it means that not all fights are three seconds long.

Here is what a non-sports guy does not get. A boxer/Thai boxer/MMA fighter would all like to end a fight immediately. It raely happens because they are matched with a peer who is aware of what is going on. In that case, when you cannot finish a dude right away, you better have the ability to stay conscious and stay mobile. Too many combatives guys operate on the notion that their shit is so good and they are so bad ass that every move they do with worl in exactly the way they think it will and they almsot never have a realistic back up plan. Every combat sports athlete on the other hand knows the fight could go on, so it is a good idea to have a way to not get KTFO.

Trying to minimize a highly evolved skill set and argue it is not applicable is foolish. And it astonsihes me that in our current day with the knowledge we have after 25 years of MMA, and videos of real world encounters that people still want to believe that there are shortcuts to functioanl fighting performance.