Best distance for head shots

[Alaskapopo]

Hello everyone, my name is John I am a long time reader first time poster. So, I read something some where along time ago (I think it may have been a training video or some such thing). That had a "at what distance should you try for the head shot." Now I do not remember exactly how that was worded but you get the idea. So I have my own idea about when this would be or rather what distance this would be. My thinking is a maximum range of 5 yards. Reasons are because first and foremost at that range the attacker is basically right on you and you need to stop him right now. Second reason is the head is kinda small and has lots of movement to it. So you should have more of a chance to hit it than when they are at a greater distance. What do you guys think?

Thank you.

It really does depend. 1 on your skill, 2. what the target is doing. Is it a hostage shot or is he wearing body armor and your first rounds had no effect. On the range I can make head shots out to 25 yards with ease however in real life I would not want to take one past 10 yards cut that in half if it was a hostage situation. .
Pat

[223man]

It would be interesting to objectify this anyway. Many, if not most, of p-f.com members practice hitting reduced sized targets at speed pretty regularly. I am sure, or at least I hope, that most here know how fast (or slow) to go to get a near-100% hit rate on 3x5 at 7-8 yards.
DocGKR alluded to an LE unit making CNS shots what sounds like a ROE within a certain distance. I've heard of a number of other units, LE and MIL both in- and outside of US, doing same. I'd be very curious to know what speed/ accuracy standards are required to be met in training to accept such ROE, especially given liabilities of missing intended targets in OIS.

And this is also what kinda brought on the question also. And of course just thinking of ways to improve over all. So maybe with a lot of practice this can be another tool in the tool box.

[Kyle Reese]

And this is also what kinda brought on the question also. And of course just thinking of ways to improve over all. So maybe with a lot of practice this can be another tool in the tool box.

The best way to improve _____ is to do ______ alot, under competent supervison. Take a class.

[JHC]

I know of at least one CA LE agency that extensively trained to target the CNS whenever possible in lethal force encounters at ranges out to about 10 yds--they were very successful in their OIS incidents when using this technique...

A little "aim small miss small" action there!

[Dagga Boy]

It would be interesting to objectify this anyway. Many, if not most, of p-f.com members practice hitting reduced sized targets at speed pretty regularly. I am sure, or at least I hope, that most here know how fast (or slow) to go to get a near-100% hit rate on 3x5 at 7-8 yards.
DocGKR alluded to an LE unit making CNS shots what sounds like a ROE within a certain distance. I've heard of a number of other units, LE and MIL both in- and outside of US, doing same. I'd be very curious to know what speed/ accuracy standards are required to be met in training to accept such ROE, especially given liabilities of missing intended targets in OIS.

25 yards-2 body 4 seconds 3x
15 yards-2 body 3 seconds 3x
10 yards-2 body 1 head-3.5 seconds 2x
7 yards-2 body 1 head-3 seconds 2x
5 yards-2 body 1 head 2.5 seconds 2x
3 yards 2 body 1 head 2 seconds. 2x

10 yards to 3 yards on the move-6 body 1 head. 2x

All from the low ready. Add about a second for a draw from the holster. Any round totally off the target is an auto DQ (100% hits). Full points on the qualification is in an area of about a 3.5 card in a T. Body size is about an 8x11. This is also usually shot in gear/uniform. We also did this in low light, single hand, in gas masks, etc. I can make this course hard enough that it is basically impossible to max, so it is a simple course that can be made harder as needed. This was the first half of the LAPD SWAT qual.

[GJM]

Nyeti, define head -- big difference between a 3x5 and whole IPSC head box.

[DocGKR]

GJM--Nyeti stated a 3x5 size in the post above.

[Dagga Boy]

I would make a "T" out of 3x5 cards if I had them, but that was essentially the standard size used for for full point value. You got full points for in the cards, half out of the cards, but in the head, and DQ'd for out.

[GJM]

GJM--Nyeti stated a 3x5 size in the post above.

Thanks for the clarification, I missed it in the "fine print."

[Dagga Boy]

I was often ridiculed for my simplistic approach to having my people do the same course all the time. When we look at guys who are shooting because they have to to and not because they want to, things are a little different. My people had a very simple procedure for dealing with lethal threats........rounds to the body and then start looking for the head shot. They were not allowed to use non-visually verified shooting outside of contact distance (retention shooting), and they learned to shoot a "pace" that was realistic and it was hardwired into their system a pace and accuracy standard. When faced with lethal force situations, they simply did exactly what they were wired for without really thinking about it. Ken Hackathorn's statement that you need to be in autopilot during these events is right on the money. Lots of folks use more intensive and complex standards, which is great, but we found that simple and realistic working standards worked well as a problem solving solution.

From a civil liability outlook, rapidly ending fights with very low round counts worked well and we had no issues. Problems tend to come into play with large round counts where what is "excessive" becomes the main factor. In almost all cases, the shooting is justified on the criminal side. Where the issue comes to play in the civil arena tends to be when a good shooting becomes "excessive". The more rounds fired, the more issues can be brought into play.