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Thread: It Bears Repeating...Managing Information About Your Self-Defense Mindset

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    It Bears Repeating...Managing Information About Your Self-Defense Mindset

    A worthwhile read from the CCW Safe blog site by Shawn Vincent...


    https://ccwsafe.com/news/managing-information/



    Managing Information About Your Self-Defense Mindset

    In the aftermath of a self-defense shooting, “if the forensic evidence is clear, the only thing that matters is what you were thinking and why you were thinking it at the time you pulled the trigger.” That’s what Don West says. He is a criminal defense attorney and National Trial Counsel for CCW Safe. Fatal or not, shooting someone is a serious crime, and the only real legal defense is that the use of deadly force was necessary because the defender had a reasonable belief that they faced an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death. The term “reasonable belief” speaks to the shooter’s mindset. If there is a hint of anger or malice, an otherwise justifiable self-defense shooting could be transformed into a murder case. When investigating a self-defense shooting, investigators will seek evidence that speaks to the defender’s mindset.

    Over the last weeks, we’ve been exploring issues for armed defenders to consider in the wake of a self-defense shooting, and we have stressed that defenders should not make detailed statements to law enforcement officers without the advice of an attorney. It is well-established that what you say “can and will be used against you in a court of law,” but that maxim, which is enshrined in your Miranda rights, applies to more than what you choose to tell police during an investigation. Practically, anything you have said anywhere to anyone at any time could be used against you — if law enforcement can discover it, and if it speaks to your mindset at the moment you pulled the trigger.

    Detectives will get access to your phone, to all your texts and emails, and to all your social media accounts. They will interview your family, friends, coworkers, acquaintances, and perhaps even known enemies. If investigators encounter evidence that demonstrates a history of violence, a hot temper, a disregard for the value of human life, or a flippant attitude towards firearms — then that evidence could be used against you in a criminal prosecution.

    We have written extensively about the Gerald Strebendt case. After being rear-ended on a dark highway on a rainy night, Strebendt got out of his vehicle and foundthe other motorist aggressively shouting obscenities and making verbal threats. Strebendt, who had armed himself with a rifle he legally kept in his vehicle, backed away, called 9-1-1, and pleaded for the aggressor to stay back. After the other motorist got close enough to grab Strebendts’s rifle, the defender fired a single fatal shot.

    At first, the shooting appeared to be a relatively clear-cut case of self-defense, but as detectives investigated, they found that Strebendt, a veteran Marine sniper and retired professional MMA fighter, had a history of being involved in road rage incidents, according to his ex-wife. Six days before the shooting Strebendt posted on Facebook: “If you like to drive slow guess what? You should be in the slow lane. If you want to drive greater than the speed limit guess what? You should be in my lane. If you get this confused somehow guess what? I will strike hard and fast like a cobra should the opportunity present itself.” There was more in his past that affected his legal defense. Investigators amassed a horde of prior bad acts and troubling statements that Strebendt’s lawyer later referred to as a “parade of horribles.”...continued...
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  2. #2
    I never miss an opportunity to point out the folly of "punisher" and various other "morale" patches/stickers on vests, hats, and in take home cars. When in the position to do so I directed them to be removed as well as writing them out of policy. I agree many of them are funny, and have several. They reside on the beer fridge in my basement or on my workbench. No argument that they are taken out of context, but if I am ever sitting as defendant in the city I live in I will not have a jury of my "peers". It will consist of soccer moms, likely cop haters, and other associated SJWs. I have enough strikes against me, not giving anyone more ammo.
    Last edited by CWM11B; 10-21-2022 at 11:02 AM.

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    Member feudist's Avatar
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    I was afraid for my life and I wish to speak to my lawyer before making any further statements. If you get the smart assed response of why do you need a lawyer, well, because thats what I pay his ass for.

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    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt_Overide View Post
    I was afraid for my life and I wish to speak to my lawyer before making any further statements.
    A very suboptimal post-shooting response that can set you up for needless trial and/or loss of evidence supporting the justness of your actions. I won't detail it again, it's been discussed here many times, but something along the lines of a 'public safety statement' can set you up for legal success in ways 'don't say anything' ever will.

    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    You shoot a guy trying to rob you. How do the cops learn the guy was trying to rob you? A witness on a nearby porch saw it but then went inside and didn't answer the door. How do cops learn there is a witness?

    I highly recommend learning and using the recommendations of @Mas for what to say and not say post shooting (although it can equally apply to any physical force used, from shooting to punching). I came up with a very similar list independently, but Mas added something I hadn't considered in the form of witness management.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

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    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    For OISs we had a list of what to tell the scene Sergeant about what happened. It’s basically what Mas says. It tells him where we were, what direction we shot, witnesses etc. Then we stand off to the side with another Sergeant until the attorney shows up.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    A very suboptimal post-shooting response that can set you up for needless trial and/or loss of evidence supporting the justness of your actions. I won't detail it again, it's been discussed here many times, but something along the lines of a 'public safety statement' can set you up for legal success in ways 'don't say anything' ever will.



    You shoot a guy trying to rob you. How do the cops learn the guy was trying to rob you? A witness on a nearby porch saw it but then went inside and didn't answer the door. How do cops learn there is a witness?

    I highly recommend learning and using the recommendations of @Mas for what to say and not say post shooting (although it can equally apply to any physical force used, from shooting to punching). I came up with a very similar list independently, but Mas added something I hadn't considered in the form of witness management.
    Is there somewhere that has a concise compilation of these thoughts?

  8. #8
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt_Overide View Post
    Is there somewhere that has a concise compilation of these thoughts?

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    Site Supporter Oldherkpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    I actually put Mas' 5 points in the Notes on my phone. While I may not have the presence of mind to look at them post-shooting, they're there to review occasionally.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter ST911's Avatar
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    John Farnam had a great quip a few years ago on this topic, worth repeating here.

    Link: https://defense-training.com/what-to-say-to-police/

    What to say to policeBY DTI-ADMIN | 2:05 AM

    12 July 13

    When involved in a lethal-force incident, where you fired shots, otherwise attempted to apply deadly force, or even brandished a gun without firing, you’ll likely be confronted by police a short time later. They’re just doing their job, but you need to be the one to look after your own best interests.

    In light of the recent “Salinas Case” ruling by the US Supreme Court, my advice to students in this regard has changed only slightly. In any event, it bears reiterating.

    I’ve recently consulted with a group of distinguished a lawyers, who are also my friends and colleagues, on this subject, and what follows is in general agreement by all:

    Simply “remaining silent” is not sufficient, by itself, to assure your rights and best interests are preserved. Interesting that we live in a country where you have to speak, in order to assert your right not to speak! And, once one stops answering police questions and demands that his lawyer be present before continuing, he shouldn’t start up again prior to his lawyer arriving. When he does, we get into an ambiguous situation, where the prosecution can later claim that, having asserted the right to remain silent at one point, the defendant subsequently changed his mind, thus, in effect, waiving his rights.

    In addition, one should not wait until he is arrested to invoke his rights. Any time you are party to a police investigation, certainly when you are “Mirandized,” your rights need to be unmistakably, unilaterally invoked, and without delay!

    Invocation of your 5th Amendment rights to decline to answer questions and have your lawyer personally present before questioning resumes must be unconditional and unambiguous. “Do you think I should have an attorney?” won’t suffice!

    No need to be snotty, but you must be clear, and you must mean it! Confusion and ambiguity are always the enemy! Slam the door shut with a clear, unequivocal statement that you wish to exercise your 5th Amendment rights, now. Don’t ask them what they think!

    Insisting that police call an ambulance for you that will take you to a hospital may also be a good strategy. Most will agree that going to a hospital to be checked-over is probably good advice for anyone who has been involved in a lethal-force incident.

    So, here is my advice when confronting arriving police in the wake of a lethal-force incident:

    Palms out at chest-level, no weapons in sight:

    1) “Officers, thank God you’re here!”
    2) “I’m the one who called.”
    3) “Those men:

    (a) attacked us,
    (b) tried to murder us,
    (c) We were in fear for our lives”

    4) “I will sign a complaint”

    5 “I’m happy to talk with you when my lawyer is present. I absolutely request my attorney, and I am respectfully invoking my 5th Amendment Rights to decline to answer any questions until he is personally present, sir.”

    It is appropriate to call officers’ attention to:

    (a) evidence that may not be obvious,
    (b) witnesses who may not be obvious,
    (c) danger that may not be obvious (eg: an armed suspect still in the area)

    It is also appropriate to produce ID.

    Always be polite and non-threatening, but take a deep breath and speak clearly. Don’t mumble and don’t become chatty.

    Finally, when you are “Mirandized,” the officer will probably ask you, “Do you understand your rights, as I’ve explained them to you?”

    The best answer is, “Officers, I’m not answering that question, nor any other, until my lawyer is here, nor will I sign, nor initial, any document.”

    We could go on for many more pages, but the foregoing pretty much sums it up. You must protect yourself, as no one else will!

    “After victory, tighten the straps on your helmet.”

    Tokugawa Ieyasu, third and final “Great Unifier” of Japan, founder of the Tokugawa Shogunate

    /John
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

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