How important is “wear whatever you want to work” to you?

[littlejerry]

Ironically the dress code in my career has relaxed more as I've gone to higher paid corporate roles. The only time I ahd to wear a tie for work was when I was a cashier at a grocery store and delivered parts to field technicians in college.

When went into salaried engineering roles it was slacks and buttoned shirts. Then jeans and polos.

Current role is... complicated. A lot of the work requires a wet suit or swim shorts. I might be wearing slacks and a button down one day or board shorts and sun shirt another day.

To your original question: pay me an extra $10k and I'll wear what you want.

[Erik]

And if he's getting paid the same regardless of how ever many clients you sign, why should he give more of a shit?

Immediacy, or proximity, matter. What is important that is immediate/proximal to his actual work?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_1lIFRdnhA

Because if you don't keep signing those clients...eventually he gets paid nothing. Being able to see beyond the immediate matters too.

There are many paths to insolvency. One of them is to badger the people who are building said product into going somewhere else without the antiquated notion of how other adults should present themselves. You have a budget specifically for entertaining clients. Use it and take them somewhere else. I'm busy actually building the thing that you've been asking for and has been sitting in our backlog for six months. You wanting me to babysit and make balloon animals for clients does not further that goal.

The primadonna thing isn't entirely wrong. Sales is just jealous they have to share the title with the dirty morlocks.

All of this is true to a degree. The flip side, of course, is almost nobody is irreplaceable. It's a team effort and sometimes the team needs you to put on a uniform and dance for the crowd. Generic you, here. Don't like it? Open your own shop and be so damn good, nobody cares about anything but that. Of course, then you get to deal with all the mundane bullshit that the rest of the team was doing at the old shop, balloon animals and all.

[BillSWPA]

This is correct. I work in a traditionally conservative profession at a traditionally conservative firm and if we went back to requiring suits we would absolutely lose people and our recruiting efforts would take a substantial hit. I wore suits for years. Brooks Brothers and the high end men's clothing store downtown loved me. It was expensive and a pain in the ass. I'm glad not to do it all the time but every once in a while, it's nice to dress for a more formal event.

One thing business attire did was create a uniform of sorts for professionals. Button downs with ties were part of the uniform for us, in fact. And yes, notwithstanding giving RR shit, quality really, really matters. At least in my profession, you'd better be bringing something special to the table if you want to get over the shitty first impression dressing like a schmuck creates. People ask about office dress codes today because they're so all over the map. It's a sensible question. It's just as uncomfortable showing up over dressed as under dressed. We had an offsite retreat recently and the attire was "smart casual." WTF does that even mean? There was actually substantial debate about this among my colleagues, and we all fucking work there.



You do get that those sales and those clients pay your salary, right?

My understanding of smart casual is that it matches business casual but dark colored designer jeans are acceptable.

I understand your point about lack of clarity. Any dress code is going to require some judgment calls. Some of the “business casual” I have seen technically met the dress code but did not look professional.

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[jh9]

And if he's getting paid the same regardless of how ever many clients you sign, why should he give more of a shit?

Immediacy, or proximity, matter. What is important that is immediate/proximal to his actual work?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j_1lIFRdnhA

Well, between bonuses and stock price I do want sales to succeed... I just want them to succeed somewhere that isn't ten feet away, negatively impacting my concentration and ability to do my job.

Otherwise I want a cut of their commission. Balloon animals don't come cheap.

(Actually I've been remote since covid so they can have the whole-ass office now. Win/win.)

[jh9]

All of this is true to a degree. The flip side, of course, is almost nobody is irreplaceable. It's a team effort and sometimes the team needs you to put on a uniform and dance for the crowd. Generic you, here. Don't like it? Open your own shop and be so damn good, nobody cares about anything but that.

Right. Well that or just leave. Kind of tying it back to the OP in that people can leave (or not hire on in the first place) if they find the ask too objectionable. It always depends on the industry or even the specific company. When enough people start doing that then the company has to re-evaluate whether or not that ask is still a net benefit to the company. Most places here just shrug off the incredibly casual dress code as the cost of doing business. It's on the list of foosball tables, catered lunch, etc. as attempts to mitigate the already high turnover.

[TGS]

Because if you don't keep signing those clients...eventually he gets paid nothing. Being able to see beyond the immediate matters too.

Duh, but that's a bit of reducto ad absurdum.

That doesn't mean people not meat-spacing customers as their primary duty are going to have the same motivation to dress the way you would, and pretending they need to is pretty far out of touch with reality. If the company goes out of business, it's not because Joe Bob the mailroom delivery cart guy or his cousin Jean the IT support technician weren't dressed to the nines as if they worked in sales. In the mean time, you'll be losing employees, mainly higher performing ones, to employers where they don't have to put up with your meaningless bullshit that doesn't get them any more money.

[Erik]

Duh, but that's a bit of reducto ad absurdum.

So was your initial "why should he give more of a shit" question. There's always a middle ground where real people live and work. And to jh9's point, that middle ground shifts from industry to industry and company to company and it shifts over time, too. Witness my own profession where suits are no longer the norm and we'd have a full-on insurrection on our hands if we went back to them.

[Totem Polar]

@TGS is on to something here (and I think @jh9 makes a fair point). I don’t ask anyone from the dean or provost’s office to step up in front of a sold-out crowd at the gala opening of a new 38mil performance space and bring audience members to tears with a performance*, so they shouldn’t ask me to do deanly shit like wear a suit or leg hump a donor or whatever it is that they do well that keeps me employed with a steady flow of happy students. I truly appreciate everyone on the team—even the tech guys who want me to take the same, boring Kevin Mitnik training for the 6th time in 18 months. We all have a part to play, and all I ask is that people pull their weight with close to the same commitment and alacrity that I pull mine—while staying out of the way of my own ox cart so I can contribute.

Rodney King, bless his departed soul, had some real issues, but he was right about the whole “getting along” thing.



*to name one real world example

[TGS]

[QUOTE=Erik;1408101]So was your initial "why should he give more of a shit" question. /QUOTE]

No, it's not, because his product is what matters to the overall success of the company.

Not whether he wears jeans and a fleece 1/4 zip instead of a nice "insert relevant customer facing outfit".

What's important to you is not necessarily important to him. What's important to him is not necessarily important to you.

And, if the company is going to be paying him regardless, he has no reason to dress up. Particularly true for hourly wage workers in administrative and technical support services that are so far fucking removed from your problems that it's just retarded to think they need to wow people with their sartorial prowess in order for the company to stay in business.

[MountainRaven]

I guess maybe my own choice in attire is what prompts the interviewees to ask about the expectation. In every case, however, I’ve been interviewing them for a position that pays significantly more than they are making today, and offers far more opportunity than their current positions. Some of them have no college, while most of my department have degrees. The lack of degree isn’t an issue for me for the right person. I always reply with something like “professional attire” but I also take them on a tour of the office so (among other things) they can see how everyone else dresses.

The fact that the question comes up frequently has me puzzled. Even having heard it more than a few times now, it still always strikes me as odd.

Speaking for myself, I will ask about dress codes and expectations because I will want/need to know if I'm going to have to buy new clothes before starting the new job. If I'm starting a job where I'm expected to carry a firearm that I supply in a holster that I supply on a belt that I supply, I'm going to want to know what the requirements and expectations are. If I'm starting a job that requires me to do lots of driving, I'm going to want to know if I'm going to be expected to drive my own car and foot my own gas bill, or if a company car and gas card will be provided.

If I have to buy new clothing, a new firearm, or a new anything before starting a new job, I am going to take that - and the associated upkeep costs - into account before beginning the new job.

We had an offsite retreat recently and the attire was "smart casual." WTF does that even mean? There was actually substantial debate about this among my colleagues, and we all fucking work there.

Last year, my brother and I were invited to our pseudo-brother's wedding and the dress code was, "smart casual". I had no idea what that meant, so I Googled it. Got everything from suits and cocktail dresses to don't-wear-sweat-pants and crocs. Asked my brother (who is far more skilled in the sartorial arts than I) and he said he had no idea what it meant, either. So I texted our pseudo-brother and got (basically), "Montana formal: Button-up shirts and jeans."

It would have been easier to just explicitly state the dress requirements/expectations than to use a term like, "smart casual".