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Thread: Point Karate for self-defense?

  1. #11
    The Nostomaniac 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chance View Post
    It's my opinion that these two points do not translate well to self-defense. The dynamics of movement and distance control in point karate arise due to the mechanics of the rule set that both participants consent to observe a priori. A karate player's ability to control distance is at least partially facilitated on their ability to anticipate the other person's reactions because that other person is working within the confines of that rule set. Without the rule set, I think a lot of that goes out the window.
    I think this thinking is akin to thinking dryfire is useless because you don't have any recoil or impacts to insure your working on the fundamentals properly.

  2. #12
    I appreciate all the responses. Continued food for thought.

    While I’m in no way claiming point karate skills are wholly transferable to most self-defense scenarios, but if an individual had already developed and possessed those skills and wanted to shift into a personal defense focus, my perspective is instead of starting completely from scratch, there are some elements they would want to retain, even if they need to be tweaked a bit for the different context in a similar way we’ve seen play out in MMA.

    And there can be substantial differences amongst the different branches of point fighting. I don’t know too many high level guys these days who are going to freak out if you get them in a clinch. They work sweeps and throws from there all the time, even incorporating some groundwork. And most cross-train in BJJ, wrestling and other systems anyway. I also really like the non-committed approach to throws and takedowns in the context self-defense.

    The evasive footwork, explosive movements, ability to break contact creating space and even managing closing the gap without being hit/tagged seem like they would offer a fair degree of transferable and applicable skills in many aspects of self-defense, including a weapon based environment when adapted accordingly.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister X View Post

    The evasive footwork, explosive movements, ability to break contact creating space and even managing closing the gap without being hit/tagged seem like they would offer a fair degree of transferable and applicable skills in many aspects of self-defense, including a weapon based environment when adapted accordingly.
    See Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson and Lyoto Machida.
    #RESIST

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chance View Post
    A karate player's ability to control distance is at least partially facilitated on their ability to anticipate the other person's reactions because that other person is working within the confines of that rule set. Without the rule set, I think a lot of that goes out the window.
    I agree with the above statement. I say this as a guy with a dan ranking who first stepped foot in a Goju dojo as a kid in 1981, and who ran his own dojo and club and taught for the local Po Po back in the day.

    Where trad Karate works is teaching some posture and body mechanics—as well as joint locks and some takedown mechanics. The translation from Karate to “combatives” striking (eg. Goju to Kelly McCann’s POI) is a reasonable easy shift, aside from getting hit all the time.

    I am not sorry that I did all that Goju, and some of that myelination absolutely helps my current combatives-all-the-time approach. I’ve also on occasion astounded my Jits partners as I go from complete dufus to the guy who gets it best if I stumble upon an angle or lock that I’ve seen before. For real, I’m like the retarded mascot in BJJ until it comes time to hit someone or strip a grip while standing. Then everyone is looking around wondering where ol’ Popye’s can of spinach came from.

    That said, and I hate to say this as a dan ranked guy who lived and breathed this stuff when I was young: Boxing and Wrestling combined is a greater sum of parts than point sparring. I mean, typing that seems like it should be obvious, but it’s not… until you get crushed standing by a boxer, or on the mat by a grappler.

    JMO, OMMV, train what you like, YOLO, etc. etc.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister X View Post

    The evasive footwork, explosive movements, ability to break contact creating space and even managing closing the gap without being hit/tagged seem like they would offer a fair degree of transferable and applicable skills in many aspects of self-defense, including a weapon based environment when adapted accordingly.

    Except it won't transfer over unless they put in a decent amount of time actaully working with continuous impact.

    I say this as someone who has taught these skills since 1987 and I am at over 8k individual students at this point, and EVERY SINGLE time I have seen a point fighting oriented guy go into FoF scenarios, their supposed skill evaporates. The cliche "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" is 100% truth. The theoretical skills you may get in point karate change completely when actual impact (and over and over impact with no break in action) is included. It is even more pronounced in a weapons based environment because there are so many variables and things to deal with it, and all of it can change in the blink of an eye, and it is so far removed from any point karate training.

    Even more pertinent is that the above skills are not unique to point fighting. If you could only get them, or get them to a strong degree in point karate, then there may be a point to training in that methodology. But they are an integral part of any good combat sport striking system, and the combat sport has the advantage of getting the student ready for actual impact, so why waste any time doing something that is actually a time waster to a large extent?

    If someone wants to train point karate because you like it or just plain want to try it out, then awesome, go for it. I am not the tactical gestapo, and have no interest in dictating what people do. But I do reserve the right to point out logical fallacies in any reasoning put forth to do so as it relates to real world fighting.
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    See Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson and Lyoto Machida.
    I was having a recent discussion/debate on this topic with an old friend and fellow martial artist and used those two specific gentleman as evidence there was some merit to the karate style movement and footwork and how some elements might translate over into self-defense.

    His counterpoint was that just because there are a few exceptional individuals who can make it work for them, doesn’t mean the same is true for most people. There are no doubt extremely athletic people who can make just about anything work. Another consideration he brought up was aging and injuries and their subsequent negative effects on mobility, which is a pretty much a prerequisite of applying that method really effectively.

  7. #17
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    It depends on what you call "point karate" as well I would expect.

    You can call something like a Sanda competition a "point competition" except that their points require that your opponent was impacted by your strike, and you can also throw or take them down.

    Or something like Combat Jiu Jitsu where you need to score an ippon in the three categories of striking, takedowns and ground control

    That may be of better value than Olympic TKD competition.

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  8. #18
    What I’m primarily thinking about would be WKF(World Karate Federation) type and similar approaches.

    More specifically what I’m mainly focused on is the concept of managing engagement from longer ranges and footwork involved, which I think distinguishes it from other combat sports. There’s just a particular way they approach it that’s unique and immediately recognizable.

    There’s no doubt, impact changes everything and I absolutely don’t view point-fighting as a stand-alone method having much to offer outside of enjoying the sport itself, but nonetheless we have seen that long range point-karate style footwork and distance management in the UFC with guys like Machida, Thompson and a few others applied very effectively. So, that’s why I’m thinking if you can extract just those specific elements from it, borrowing only those movements found useful in true mixed martial art fashion, or you have already developed them, it just might have certain useful applications(even if relatively limited) for self-defense, providing you possess the necessary physical and athletic attributes.

    I think a few WKF guys like Rafael Aghayev have crossed over into Karate Combat, so it might prove useful to contrast their WKF matches with those, but the karate guys in MMA is probably the more useful comparison. Not self-defense, but still a fair amount of crossover IMO.

  9. #19
    I don't have the combatives credentials that many of the people on this forum have, but I really have to kind of challenge the idea of "controlling distance" in any context outside of some kind of combat sport. Every single violent encounter I've witnessed or been a part of in real life has collapsed to the closest range one party desired, which is usually pretty close.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
    More specifically what I’m mainly focused on is the concept of managing engagement from longer ranges and footwork involved, which I think distinguishes it from other combat sports. There’s just a particular way they approach it that’s unique and immediately recognizable.

    But that is simply not true. Savate for one is ebtirely about engaging from as far away as possible, AND it includes actual contact from day one. The better MMA schools also focus on outside movement and long range shots until it is time to go in and get into an entangelment. I am close with Adam and Rory Singer of formerly the Hardcore Gym and they always built their fighters to ideally potshot from outside until they had a clear entry. The discussions I ahd with Adam on that go back to 1998.

    And the fact that there are only TWO succesful MMA fighters that have been named who have a karate based background pretty much indicates it does not apply across the board and is more down to outstanding athletes rather than the system itself. We are 25 years in with modern MMA, and only a tiny fraction of karate fighters have made a successful transition. That is not theory, but history.
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