Shotgun loading techniques

[BK14]

Some co-workers and I have been discussing shotgun loading techniques. Focusing on a “tactical” setting, we’ve been playing with different methods on getting 2-4 shells back into the gun quickly. In our context, it’s generally from a side-saddle, 870 or 590. I know some guys who have a shell caddy on their kit, but I’m not that high speed yet.

Since we all get it drilled into us as rifle dudes to not relinquish the master grip if not needed, that was how most of us always loaded the gun. Support hand comes up, grabs a round from the saddle, load until full. But we’ve been playing with more of a 3-gun technique, of rolling the gun up onto the strong side shoulder, ejection port up, and then using strong hand to load.

The other technique I’ve been practicing is twin loading from the saddle as demonstrated here:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...de-saddle/amp/

The consensus has been that if it’s 1/2 rounds, it may be faster to just load with support hand. If it’s more, then rolling it may be faster.

What’re your guys thoughts on the most effective way to get the shotgun topped back off? What am I not considering?

[Dorsai]

This is for me. I'm not going to try and convince anyone else, just my decision and why. I prefer to roll the shotgun and load with my strong hand. My reason for loading with my strong hand is because I feel I have more control of the gun when holding it with the weak hand near the balance point than I do with a firing grip only. Plus I am more dexterous with my strong hand so the reload will be faster. If I have to shoot in a hurry, there are very few scenarios where I have to shoot immediately with just my strong hand. Otherwise, one hand is moving to the grip or forend and I think it's about even on the time.

I think loading from the side saddle should be reserved for when it's faster than any other location and it has to be done as fast as possible. Otherwise, I view the sidesaddle as the reload of last resort when you have no other ammo. I have a vest that is very easy and fast to throw on. On the strong side (another reason I reload with the strong hand), there are two pouches, each of which holds 14 shells in loops with a velcro secured flap. Without question, reloading from these pouches while secure, is slow. But if I don't have to reload fast enough to use the side saddle, I'll use the pouches. Better than a fanny pack or dump pouch with loose shells that have to be oriented properly.

I prefer shell cards to a dedicated side saddle. If you use the shells in the side saddle, you have reload it one shell at a time. With a card, rip off the empty and slap on a fresh one. Which explains the 3 vertical pouches on the left (weak) side of the vest. Each one holds a 6 rd ESSTAC shell card.

If I can only grab the shotgun and the ammo in and on it, the shell card/side saddle must be the reload source by default. If I can grab the vest, then pouches are the first choice. If I reload from the shell card circumstances will dictate if it is faster to slap on a new card or load from the pouch. But I want to point out something. If I'm in that worst case scenario where my shotgun is empty and I need to reload because there are still bad guys in danger distance, I should be transitioning to the handgun I hope I have available. Short of me against the gang or Walking Dead, the odds of my needing to reload to finish the fight are in my favor. We do it in matches, and we do it in training (for matches). And that terrible, no good situation that shouldn't have happened. But honestly, I don't train for matches because no matter how fast I can reload, I can't do it as fast as the really good guys. So I "train" for the Walking Dead because it's more fun than video games.

[RevolverRob]

What is the goal in question? To charge an empty gun as fast as possible or to top off a partially full gun as fast as possible?

For me, if the gun has any ammo in it - I'll keep it shouldered and load the tube from underneath singly. Best way to not drop rounds on the ground. Is it slower? Yes, it is.

Since my first reaction to an empty shotgun is to port load it - thus making it a gun with ammo in it, I go back to single loaded.

If you're going to load from non-cards/saddles it might be a different situation.

I guess my take away is - twins and quads are nice for gun games. A defensive gun is not getting unmounted or moved below ready until I am sure I am done shooting.

ETA: You can port load and fire the gun faster than you could ever load the tube. With practice I bet you can load and fire four rounds from an empty pump faster than you can load four using Side-Saddle Twins

[BK14]

This is for me. I'm not going to try and convince anyone else, just my decision and why. I prefer to roll the shotgun and load with my strong hand. My reason for loading with my strong hand is because I feel I have more control of the gun when holding it with the weak hand near the balance point than I do with a firing grip only. Plus I am more dexterous with my strong hand so the reload will be faster. If I have to shoot in a hurry, there are very few scenarios where I have to shoot immediately with just my strong hand. Otherwise, one hand is moving to the grip or forend and I think it's about even on the time.

I think loading from the side saddle should be reserved for when it's faster than any other location and it has to be done as fast as possible. Otherwise, I view the sidesaddle as the reload of last resort when you have no other ammo. I have a vest that is very easy and fast to throw on. On the strong side (another reason I reload with the strong hand), there are two pouches, each of which holds 14 shells in loops with a velcro secured flap. Without question, reloading from these pouches while secure, is slow. But if I don't have to reload fast enough to use the side saddle, I'll use the pouches. Better than a fanny pack or dump pouch with loose shells that have to be oriented properly.

I prefer shell cards to a dedicated side saddle. If you use the shells in the side saddle, you have reload it one shell at a time. With a card, rip off the empty and slap on a fresh one. Which explains the 3 vertical pouches on the left (weak) side of the vest. Each one holds a 6 rd ESSTAC shell card.

If I can only grab the shotgun and the ammo in and on it, the shell card/side saddle must be the reload source by default. If I can grab the vest, then pouches are the first choice. If I reload from the shell card circumstances will dictate if it is faster to slap on a new card or load from the pouch. But I want to point out something. If I'm in that worst case scenario where my shotgun is empty and I need to reload because there are still bad guys in danger distance, I should be transitioning to the handgun I hope I have available. Short of me against the gang or Walking Dead, the odds of my needing to reload to finish the fight are in my favor. We do it in matches, and we do it in training (for matches). And that terrible, no good situation that shouldn't have happened. But honestly, I don't train for matches because no matter how fast I can reload, I can't do it as fast as the really good guys. So I "train" for the Walking Dead because it's more fun than video games.

Outside of rare situations, the shotgun is typically a grab and go use, so the rounds we have on board are all we’ve got. Every once in awhile, I’ll preemptively throw an Esstac card on my vest in my rifle mag pouch to have a few extra rounds. I have a standard sidesaddle, but maybe I should look into getting approved to switch that out to running cards.

What pouches do you run the cards in?

When you’re rolling the gun and reloading off the sidesaddle, what technique do you use?

[BK14]

What is the goal in question? To charge an empty gun as fast as possible or to top off a partially full gun as fast as possible?

For me, if the gun has any ammo in it - I'll keep it shouldered and load the tube from underneath singly. Best way to not drop rounds on the ground. Is it slower? Yes, it is.

Since my first reaction to an empty shotgun is to port load it - thus making it a gun with ammo in it, I go back to single loaded.

If you're going to load from non-cards/saddles it might be a different situation.

I guess my take away is - twins and quads are nice for gun games. A defensive gun is not getting unmounted or moved below ready until I am sure I am done shooting.

ETA: You can port load and fire the gun faster than you could ever load the tube. With practice I bet you can load and fire four rounds from an empty pump faster than you can load four using Side-Saddle Twins

I’d agree that if the guns dry, either port loading or a transition to different tool would be the ideal options. So, I’m primarily interested in what techniques guys use to top the gun off, and how/when.

We constantly talk about shotguns being thinking man’s guns, and that if you’re not shooting you’re loading. Just trying to flush out if there’s a “better” way to be doing that constant loading.

I’m still recovering from a meniscus surgery, but once I get cleared to shoot again, I’ll throw it on a timer to see which is faster between port loading for 4 shots vs side saddle twins for me. I train port loading regularly as my gun doesn’t have an extension.

[TCinVA]

What’re your guys thoughts on the most effective way to get the shotgun topped back off?

See, that word right there in the middle makes this complicated.

There is no faster way to get a shotgun's magazine loaded than to quad load from a dedicated shell holder set up for that specific purpose...at least at the moment based on what we've seen in competition. There for a while people were using these long stick-like speed loaders but I think those have gone out of fashion. So quad loading from one of those things is the fastest way to get a shotgun's tubular magazine loaded.

...except the only time anyone has anything like that on their body is when they're at a 3 gun competition. Those getups suck at holding shells when you are doing anything remotely realistic like getting in and out of vehicles, moving through a structure as part of a team, etc.

So is it really "effective"?

Yes if you are a 3 gunner or run practical shotgun in Europe. Not so much if you are on a SWAT team.

Twin loading is still pretty fast, and it's a hell of a lot more practical for normal folks, IF your equipment is set up properly. You can use something like the EZ8 shell holder and it will actually fit on a belt or another piece of gear pretty readily, and it holds on to shotgun shells well enough when adjusted properly that you can practically carry it that way out in the world.

I mean, I never do outside a class environment because I only have ready access to a shotgun at home. And I don't know any police officer who carries one because it's a lot of real estate to take up on one's Sam Browne and it would be subject to breakage pretty quickly just getting into and out of vehicles. Outside of a class environment or a rare occasion when I'm hunting with the shotgun it stays at home. (You should see the look on people's face the first time they see you twin load an 870 on a dove hunt)

So I can twin load with one of those readily, but is that "effective" given my use of the gun?

Of course, if you could twin load from a side saddle that would be much more practical, at least, since every defensive use of a shotgun involves grabbing the gun and going to work with it as it sits. Side saddles make having more ammunition practical and that's why they are ubiquitous on shotguns. The Aridus side saddle actually works pretty well at this because it's really the only one that holds the shell firmly enough to make that work at speed. And if you practice the technique Adam demonstrates on video, you can get the magazine tube of a shotgun reloaded very quickly.

Is that "effective"? If one has a gun with the Aridus QDC and they practice the technique to the point of mastery then if they actually run their gun in a real world defensive shooting they'll probably be able to do it. So if one is using a shotgun for defense, I'd say, yeah. That's "effective"...assuming the preconditions have been met.

If you don't have the excellent Aridus QDC and you don't spend time practicing that technique, however....

I don't have an Aridus QDC on my guns primarily because with my hands the hard corner of the QDC lands right on my left index finger when I'm running the gun from my left side. In my house a shot down the hallway from my bedroom door is going to be off the left shoulder so this is kind of important to me. I also like the idea of maximizing cover/concealment inside a structure so being able to run the gun from the opposite shoulder is pretty important to me. That sadly means I have to make a choice between Adam's excellent QDC or the capacity to run weak side. I choose weak side capability and so I use the Vang Comp soft-sided shell cards. They're the only velcro shell cards that don't suck, they're incredibly good at their job, and they're cheap. I have a whole box full of them I take to every class and I usually come back with an empty box. But they suck for twin loading the way Adam does it.

So if you put me and Adam side by side on something like a Rolling Thunder drill, he's going to handily outrun me with his technique if I'm loading exclusively from my side saddle and not my EZ8.

Now, if you asked me what I teach...well that's a different story.

I don't teach 3 gunners, at least not deliberately. If they've shown up to a class they have not identified themselves as such.

I primarily teach normal earth people, normal patrol officers, some members of tactical teams, and the occasional SF/SOF/MEUSOC guy in class. Usually they are primarily interested in the shotgun as a fighting tool. These people are using the gun under very, very different circumstances.

They are shooting fewer rounds but with much higher stakes. They have a very limited supply of ammunition that they will be trying to load under incredibly high levels of stress when they may or may not be in charge of all their faculties, may or may not be bleeding, may or may not be exhausted, may or may not be freezing...you get the idea. If they need more shells in the gun they can't really afford to bobble them.

Yet if you go to typical shotgun training run by institutions, you'll see live shells laying all over the place because people are not taught techniques aimed primarily at ensuring that the shell they pull from their side saddle makes it into the magazine tube successfully. I spend time in class going over techniques in detail and coaching specifically on accomplishing that based on their anatomy and equipment because my theory is that if they need that shell, they need it pretty fuckin' bad. So I teach them how to get a single shell at a time into the magazine tube of a shotgun in a way that will work even if they've only got one hand to operate the gun with.

I refer to loading the magazine tube as a voluntary load. It's something you do because you think it's a good idea to keep the beast fed.

I also teach an emergency load. That is something you do because you got a click instead of a bang and that means there's still a problem to solve. This, too, is taught based on their physiology and their equipment, but generally from a side saddle it's something they can get done in less than 3 seconds by the end of class and something they can get around 2 seconds with followup practice. It can be done in less than 1.5 seconds if they get obsessive about it.

I spend time on the emergency load because in the defensive context I'm usually dealing with people who don't have a sidearm. So if they run the gun dry...which we don't want them to do, but keeping track of round count in fights isn't easy...they really, really need to be able to get it back up and running because it's their only gun. Even if they do have a sidearm, damn near every single person I've ever had in class is able to get another round in the shotgun and get it on target faster and more reliably than they are able to draw a pistol and fire the three accurate shots into the vitals that we think of as a bare minimum for pistol effectiveness.

The techniques for the emergency loads, too, work even if you only have one functional arm.

Are these techniques "effective"?

For a 3 gunner, no.

For someone using the shotgun as a defensive tool, absolutely. They work pretty much the same regardless of what sort of on-the-gun or even off-the-gun ammunition carriage they are using, they effectively get shells where they need to be even if someone's hands are numb and bloody because it's Feburary and it's sleeting and who the fuck thought having a high-round-count shotgun class was a good idea under these conditions and that home stipple job on my shotgun's forend was not a great plan, and they even work when you've only got one hand to support the gun, load the gun, and shoot the gun. (Assuming you have a side saddle)

It hinges on what you mean by "effective".

I look at "effective" as "The most reliable way to ensure that a limited supply of ammunition ends up inside the gun where you can fight with it no matter what is happening" rather than "fastest way I can get at least 4 of the hundred shells I'm carrying on my person into this gun so I can burn through this stage faster than that other dude over there"

I don't have any advice for 3 gunners because I don't 3 gun. Reload drag racing with a shotgun doesn't seem terribly fun to me, but I've been told by prior girlfriends that I'm not a lot of fun in other ways so I can live with the pain of it.

When it comes to defensive use, I have very definite opinions based on what I've seen from the very miniscule percentage of shooters who have enough sense to seek out formal training in the last 20 years.

[Dorsai]

Outside of rare situations, the shotgun is typically a grab and go use, so the rounds we have on board are all we’ve got. Every once in awhile, I’ll preemptively throw an Esstac card on my vest in my rifle mag pouch to have a few extra rounds. I have a standard sidesaddle, but maybe I should look into getting approved to switch that out to running cards.

What pouches do you run the cards in?

When you’re rolling the gun and reloading off the sidesaddle, what technique do you use?

Any pouch that will hold 1 or 2 30rd AR mag or something of similar size. A 6 or 7 shell card is long enough to ft and grab. The pouches on my vest have flaps with velcro closures. So they keep mags or shell cards from falling out. The flap makes it a little slower, but keeps the cards in place if I was to take a tumble. Tucking the flap in the pouch makes it easier and faster to access a new card, but you'll lose one if you trip/fall, etc. Not that I do it routinely, but they also make a handy make-do holster. If you've got a light on your handgun, even better. I can tuck a gun in the #1 pouch (counting from center going outboard) and still have two shell cards available.

In my classes, I was taught to shoot, load, shoot, load. Basically if you shot two rounds, load two, and I'd generally go from a pouch. In practice and training, I'd alternate between using the pouches and grab one or two rounds, or deliberately use the side saddle and deplete it so I have to rip it off and slap a fresh card on. My vest is handy because it is ONE thing I can grab and put on. It is comfortable, will go over any clothing, and holds more than a bandolier, pouch or bag, and everything is secure (not high speed).

[DamonL]

There is a lot of info in this thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Which-and-Why

[RevolverRob]

I still need to figure out a way to securely mount an EZ8 to the side of a shotgun. It would be YUGE compared to a side saddle. But you could load singly with off hand or roll the gun upside down and load doubles out of the side saddle. It could be awesome.

[titsonritz]