General (and some specific) Defensive Shotgun Questions

[willie]

The Beretta semi auto shotguns that I owned had the safety on the front side of the trigger guard compared to
Remingtons which have the safety on the rear side of the trigger guard. When changing shotguns by using a Beretta and not a Remington, the different safety locations interfered with my handling the weapon. In one instance a NG discharge resulted. I have had three since age 6. I'll be 75 in January. I write all this to encourage the op to choose a Mossburg pump which has a tang safety and avoid the mix-up that I had. This occurred before I got old.

[SwampDweller]

At work at the moment, but I appreciate the insight. Good point on keeping the manipulation of weapons the same between a sporting and defense shotgun. That's also kind of an advantage to a pump with changeable barrels in that you can use literally the same gun for all purposes.

I did find one piece of insight I did not think of in the previously mentioned old shotgun thread:

However, I recently switched from a 14" Benelli Entry Gun to an 870 in my HD role. One of the drivers was malfunction clearing. Autos (especially inertia autos) are more ammo and weight sensitive. The thing is, an auto relies on the ammo to cycle the gun and due to the nature of shotshell ammo (crimped plastic hull) you get more dimensional variance. Not only that, when an auto gets jammed, it can take 3 or 4 steps to clear, sometimes requiring more hands and fingers than the average human has. It's also faster to get an empty pump up and running again.

Decent point. Shotgun shells aren't as conducive to an autoloading action as rifle or pistol cartridges are, and as a hunter and shooter I've certainly run across a lot of variance between shells even in the same box, and I'm not talking about cheepo stuff either. I figure short stroking is a pretty easy user-induced "malfunction" to clear and can be done rather quickly iirc.

If a shorter LOP stock like the Magpul (but dang I wanted wood!) will help prevent short stroking, that sounds like the ticket to running a pump and guaranteeing enough power for one to cycle it.

[RevolverRob]

Remember the 1301 is a gas, not inertia, gun. It is far less picky about ammo and may be the least picky semi out there.

But if you want a pump gun and have your heart set on it. I'd still lean towards a 590A1 setup with Magpul kit. You just need a spare ammo carrier of some kind, a sling, and a light. If you do the Magpul setup, you can run the M-Lok cantilever scout mount with something like an Inforce WML.

[SwampDweller]

Remember the 1301 is a gas, not inertia, gun. It is far less picky about ammo and may be the least picky semi out there.

But if you want a pump gun and have your heart set on it. I'd still lean towards a 590A1 setup with Magpul kit. You just need a spare ammo carrier of some kind, a sling, and a light. If you do the Magpul setup, you can run the M-Lok cantilever scout mount with something like an Inforce WML.

Right now I don't necessarily have my heart set on anything. As for a pump, yeah, I'd probably go with a 590A1 as you described. If semi auto, it'd either be a 1301 or M4, both of which are gas operated. Though it's my understanding that the 1301 in many people's experience is less picky about ammo whereas the M4 was designed to run only with full power loads.

At this point it's mainly a "pump vs semi auto" decision. If I go with an autoloader, it'd be between the Benelli M4 and the 1301. I do really like the proven track record over 2 decades in military and other use, the original military testing results on the M4 was quite impressive. Not to mention Battlefield Vegas' range report on how their shotguns were holding up and the M4 was legendary. I don't think they had/have any 1301s, but there's no replacement for track record. But I do already have a Beretta so I'm familiar somewhat with it.

I like the idea of a pump more, especially one with 8+1 rounds, and if I can successfully put to rest my concerns about short stroking, that's likely the route I'd go. It sounds like clearing a short stroke malfunction is faster than clearing an autoloader stoppage, iirc. I think all it took me was bringing the pump back again and retrying.

[RevolverRob]

Right now I don't necessarily have my heart set on anything. As for a pump, yeah, I'd probably go with a 590A1 as you described. If semi auto, it'd either be a 1301 or M4, both of which are gas operated. Though it's my understanding that the 1301 in many people's experience is less picky about ammo whereas the M4 was designed to run only with full power loads.

At this point it's mainly a "pump vs semi auto" decision. If I go with an autoloader, it'd be between the Benelli M4 and the 1301. I do really like the proven track record over 2 decades in military and other use, the original military testing results on the M4 was quite impressive. Not to mention Battlefield Vegas' range report on how their shotguns were holding up and the M4 was legendary. I don't think they had/have any 1301s, but there's no replacement for track record. But I do already have a Beretta so I'm familiar somewhat with it.

I like the idea of a pump more, especially one with 8+1 rounds, and if I can successfully put to rest my concerns about short stroking, that's likely the route I'd go. It sounds like clearing a short stroke malfunction is faster than clearing an autoloader stoppage, iirc. I think all it took me was bringing the pump back again and retrying.

Okay - Semi vs. Pump - let's break it down as to what makes you lean one way or the other.

What are your top 3 reasons for a pump?

What are your top 3 reasons for an auto?

What is the biggest con of the pump vs. biggest con of auto for you?

FWIW, I don't think you can go wrong with any well made 12 or 20 gauge repeating shotgun and a handful of buckshot. I like 12s, my wife likes 20s, right now the long gun sitting by the bed is this 20-gauge 870:

[SwampDweller]

Okay - Semi vs. Pump - let's break it down as to what makes you lean one way or the other.

What are your top 3 reasons for a pump?

What are your top 3 reasons for an auto?

What is the biggest con of the pump vs. biggest con of auto for you?

Top 3 reasons for Pump (no particular order):
1. Insensitivity to ammunition; I can practice with powder puff loads out of the box with no fear of "is this gonna be too weak to cycle and then I'll wonder if it was the gun or the ammo?" Federal Top Gun is cheap.
2. Mechanically simple and extremely reliable. I know modern semi autos are extremely reliable too, but excluding user error, as long as you can run the pump and keep it fed the gun will work. No gas or inertia systems.
3. I just like the way they look and feel. This probably shouldn't be a top reason, but the way they look and feel inspire confidence. They've been doing the job for well over a century.

Top 3 reasons for Auto (no particular order):
1. Eliminates the possibility of user-induced short stroking. This seems useful when operating under stress and speed, but perhaps with enough practice and training with a pump could be a nothingburger.
2. Could be wrong, but the faster rate of fire might prove helpful in a home invasion scenario with multiple opponents being faced all at one time.
3. If an arm/hand is wounded enough to preclude the working of a pump, you'll at least still be able to fire the shots you have in the gun. Also easier to use prone.

Top Con for Pump vs Auto--
Pump: Possibility of user-induced short stroking
Auto: More complicated. Possible ammo sensitivity or cycling stoppages. Also more expensive.

____________

Other than that, another thing I like about the pump is that it's relatively safe from the political landscape's increasingly anti-gun posture and intent compared to most anything else, especially if I put non-threatening looking wood furniture on it.

[diananike]

Okay - Semi vs. Pump - let's break it down as to what makes you lean one way or the other.

What are your top 3 reasons for a pump?

What are your top 3 reasons for an auto?

What is the biggest con of the pump vs. biggest con of auto for you?

FWIW, I don't think you can go wrong with any well made 12 or 20 gauge repeating shotgun and a handful of buckshot. I like 12s, my wife likes 20s, right now the long gun sitting by the bed is this 20-gauge 870:

What kind of 20gauge ammo are you running ?

I tried 2.75” Federal and Winchester #3 buckshot and Federal premium 3” #2 buckshot in both an IC and Modified choke and had quite poor patterning with all of them. They were all throwing a couple of pellets off a 8.5x11 paper at only 12yds.
I wish there was a flitecontrol option in 20gauge.

I love the small frames of 20 gauge guns but the buckshot options are just too poor in patterning for me to consider it as good option.

[RevolverRob]

What kind of 20gauge ammo are you running ?

I tried 2.75” Federal and Winchester #3 buckshot and Federal premium 3” #2 buckshot in both an IC and Modified choke and had quite poor patterning with all of them. They were all throwing a couple of pellets off a 8.5x11 paper at only 12yds.
I wish there was a flitecontrol option in 20gauge.

I love the small frames of 20 gauge guns but the buckshot options are just too poor in patterning for me to consider it as good option.

I am running Spartan "00" buck. Which is not double-aught, but in fact is #1 buck. It's a 9-pellet load at about 1200fps and it patterns quite well overall at of an IMOD choke. I can keep 8 of 9 pellets on a B8 out to 20y. Which is acceptable for my purposes, because there is only 30-yards from the edge of my property line to the other edge of the property line.

I've got several dozen of the Winchester and Remington buck and it also doesn't pattern super well. A combo of no buffering and high velocity. I think I get a lot of smashed pellets as they leave the muzzle.

The other two loads I haven't tried but need/want to. Aguila has a #2 buck load at 1220fps and Winchester has a 20-gauge Personal Defense which is #3 buck, buffered, copper plated, and lower velocity than the Federal 3" loads.

[LHS]

I am running Spartan "00" buck. Which is not double-aught, but in fact is #1 buck. It's a 9-pellet load at about 1200fps and it patterns quite well overall at of an IMOD choke. I can keep 8 of 9 pellets on a B8 out to 20y. Which is acceptable for my purposes, because there is only 30-yards from the edge of my property line to the other edge of the property line.

I've got several dozen of the Winchester and Remington buck and it also doesn't pattern super well. A combo of no buffering and high velocity. I think I get a lot of smashed pellets as they leave the muzzle.

The other two loads I haven't tried but need/want to. Aguila has a #2 buck load at 1220fps and Winchester has a 20-gauge Personal Defense which is #3 buck, buffered, copper plated, and lower velocity than the Federal 3" loads.

I dream of a proper 20ga FliteControl round with 8 or 9 pellets of copper-plated #1 buck going ~1150fps or so.

[RevolverRob]

I dream of a proper 20ga FliteControl round with 8 or 9 pellets of copper-plated #1 buck going ~1150fps or so.

Yea the Spartan is the closest I've found. It's not low recoil FC or TAP good, but with good choke selection it is acceptable.

Now that Federal makes a FliteControl 20-gauge for waterfowl, I see no reason why they can't co-opt the wad and shove some #1 buck in there. You can only get about 9-pellets of #1 into a 20-gauge shell - an 8-pellet load with buffering in a FC wad would do the trick nicely.