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Thread: General (and some specific) Defensive Shotgun Questions

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    Get comfy for what? The reasons aren't that complicated, AFAIK. I was simply curious as to why someone would want to put extra effort into learning the shotgun when they already have rifles, particularly something that takes as much effort to master as the pump shotgun, or to spend a bunch of money on a semi-auto shotgun (and still have a decent learning curve). For me, I would never swap out the rifle for a shotgun with my current lifestyle, but I certainly do want to learn to master the pump shotgun, similarly for political reasons.
    "Why would you go for a shotgun over a rifle for defensive purposes?"

    Oh, I was anticipating a thread steer right into the bog of "why defensive rifles have obsoleted shotguns" versus "why shotguns are the best defensive weapon" discussion. Maybe I was wrong. I kind of hope not as I was looking forward to the reading entertainment.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 03RN View Post
    Shotguns aren't that difficult to master and the capacity of rifles is kinda not that important in CONUS. So why not use the more effective tool?
    I have always been told that the shotgun is the "thinking man's long arm", and no matter how you cut it, most shotguns have a more complicated manual-of-arms compared to a rifle, and the wider capabilities also means more things to master. Learning basic use of a shotgun may not be all that hard, but mastering seems like it'd be far more difficult (having to do slug select, learning various reloading techniques, ammo management, etc.); Hell, I wouldn't even really say I have mastered the rifle, as I set a pretty high bar for what "mastery" is, even though I've taken more than a few classes and am very comfortable in the basic operations of the AR. Given how most of us have limited time and resources to throw at guns and shooting, I was interested in the thought process behind wanting to expend all those resources for a platform that offers only incremental improvements when it appeared that they already had highly effective set-up.

  3. #13
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    A friend bought the tax stamp, attached a regular stock to a Mossberg 12 ga Shockwave, and added a +1 extension. I gave him a supply of Federal low recoil buckshot. He has a nifty home defense weapon.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter 03RN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    I have always been told that the shotgun is the "thinking man's long arm", and no matter how you cut it, most shotguns have a more complicated manual-of-arms compared to a rifle, and the wider capabilities also means more things to master. Learning basic use of a shotgun may not be all that hard, but mastering seems like it'd be far more difficult (having to do slug select, learning various reloading techniques, ammo management, etc.); Hell, I wouldn't even really say I have mastered the rifle, as I set a pretty high bar for what "mastery" is, even though I've taken more than a few classes and am very comfortable in the basic operations of the AR. Given how most of us have limited time and resources to throw at guns and shooting, I was interested in the thought process behind wanting to expend all those resources for a platform that offers only incremental improvements when it appeared that they already had highly effective set-up.
    I guess I missed where the op said he had limited time or resources and just wanted the simplest long gun.

    Sounds like he wants to learn something new.

  5. #15
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    -With pistols, the general rule of thumb (according to Todd, DocGKR, and others) seems to be 1k rounds of stoppage-free shots before trusting to carry/use for defense. What number is this for shotguns? Specifically pumps like the Mossberg 590A1, but also for the Benelli M4.
    Generally shotguns that aren't working right will manifest that with a much lower round count. It's usually right away. When a client shows up with a gun that isn't running right the first thing I do is try running my ammunition through it as fast as possible. Running the gun at my speed usually tells me where to start looking to determine what's up. Often we find that their ammo is not working right with their gun. (Very common...the ammunition should be the first suspect when a gun isn't running) If I attempt to run the gun and it isn't working properly it's usually either because the gun is new and something is wrong out of the box, or the gun is really, really old and hasn't been maintained. Police trade-in guns often show up to class where the new owner had no idea that the gun never saw any maintenance while in police use and it needs all the springs to be replaced, a new safety detent (on Mossbergs) or new shell stops, etc.

    With a Benelli M4 you are most likely going to end up finding that problems running will come down to ammo. Benellis in general are pickier about ammunition than pump guns or the Beretta 1301.

    On a pump gun, if the gun runs through a couple hundred shells of birdshot well and you run a few rounds of your preferred buckshot through it without issue, it's probably fine. With a semi-auto you want to be more careful in evaluating your buckshot loads, especially if they are "low recoil" loads that haven't been thoroughly proven in your chosen gun.

    By that I mean that I've fired or seen fired many thousands of rounds of Federal Flight Control low recoil buckshot through 1301 shotguns without issue. I'd have no concerns about a 1301 running low recoil FFC buckshot if I picked up a new one tomorrow, so I wouldn't see the need to invest a bunch of money shooting FFC buckshot through the gun to verify function.

    If you settle on Uncle Wuzzy's Ammo Haus' chained buckshot load as your preferred munition, I haven't a clue how that's going to run in a 1301 so you'd best test it thoroughly. Etc.

    -How do modern Mossberg 590A1s hold up to hard use? I experienced quite a bit of grief years ago from Remington after their QC took a nosedive following the buyout, and it seems like many manufacturers since 2020 have experienced a decline in that way. For that matter, what qualifies as "hard use" with a pump shotgun? How many rounds do shotgun classes usually go through per student?
    A 590A1 that's made right works just fine. I had a client a couple of weeks ago with a brand new 590A1 that ran like a raped ape. I've also had clients show up with 590A1's that had problems with the stamped parts that ended up locking up hard and had to go back to the factory to essentially be rebuilt.

    A defensive shotgun needs to be reliable above all else. A properly built 870 or 590 will serve very well as a defensive shotgun. You will eventually break something on a pump gun, but it will take a while to make that happen and most people aren't using their guns enough to get there.

    Round count depends on the class. Some of my classes have gone through nearly 300 shells in a day. Some have gone through a little more than 100. It depends on the clients in the class and what they're capable of. My Home Defense Shotgun class tends to be lower round count because people are usually drinking from the fire hose and they're not used to the sheer physicality of how I'm teaching them to run a shotgun. HDS runs every string of fire from a cruiser ready setup of the shotgun precisely because I only have people for a very limited amount of time and reps, so I need to ensure they master the most critical part of using a defensive shotgun: Getting it into action. A consequence of that is that they also get as many reps as possible setting the gun up for cruiser ready. This is especially important for people running semi-auto shotguns because each of them has their own unique control system that damn near nobody actually trains on enough.

    In HDS I have to teach a bit about home defense, teach a bit about the nature of the threat, teach a bit about the realities of violent crime, teach a bit about how the police ain't showing up, teach a bit about how shotguns work, teach them how to live safely with the gun, teach them about justifiable use of force, and then teach them how to use the gun. And during lunch I try to teach them how not to get shot by responding police. The rest of the time is spent teaching them how to load, manipulate, and shoot the gun and a little bit about using cover. It's 50 pounds of material I'm trying to cram into whatever vessel a client brings to the class. Some folks show up with a dump truck. Some show up with a thimble.

    The goal for that class is to prepare someone for the reality of home defense and to successfully articulate why they did what they did in the aftermath of using force.

    My Shotgun Skills class presumes someone has already had all that and just goes into greater depth about actually performing with the gun so we start making loud noises after the safety/med brief and we shoot as much as possible. That class is about repetition with coaching...coaching being a rare thing to encounter in training, unfortunately.

    -I grew up using shotguns (mostly 870s) hunting, but I do remember experiencing short stroking a few times during high-speed events like doves flashing by. It's often made me avoid thinking of pump shotguns in a defensive role. After all, if I mess up pumping it when I'm hunting and having fun, who's to say I wouldn't during a life or death situation? Is this something that should rule out the shotgun for me?
    No. Short stroking happens, but generally it's happening to people who have not ingrained the correct level of aggressiveness in running a pump gun. The only thing we do gently with a pump shotgun is press the trigger. Everything else is brute force, and as much of it as humanly possible. We have to run the action forcefully to the rear, and then forcefully forward. I run a pump gun with far more aggression now than I did when I first started hunting with one. In class believe it or not, I rarely see someone short stroke a pump gun. When I do it's usually because they are a smaller statured person with an ill-fitting gun. One of the reasons we want to get a shorter stock on a defensive pump is to allow the shooter to get as much muscle on the action as possible. I also take time in class to show folks that the next shell is only released from the magazine when the forend is at the absolute last amount of it's travel.

    Focusing on running the action hard and literally showing them that the next shell doesn't pop out until the forend can't move anymore tends to accomplish the feat of taking people who are fairly unfamiliar with defensive shotguns and turning them into people who run the action harder than Ike was on Tina. They're usually pretty tired by the end of the day, but their guns run.

    So I'm not super worried about people short stroking a pump gun once they've been introduced to the proper level of aggression with which to run one. When you run one like a viking berserker swinging an axe, short stroking stops becoming a problem. Then the only time I see it is if someone is trying to make me fall in love with how fast they can fire a followup shot with the pump. If they want to make me fall in love I give them the floor and let them try it a time or two, and invariably they make a mistake like short stroking and that's when I tell them that a fast click isn't nearly as impressive as a boom another tenth of a second later. The point gets made and they move on with their life.

    -I'm leaning towards a pump, but the Benelli M4 is the only semi auto on my radar. While there are many singing its praises for reliability on the internet, I have seen the opposite reported, here among other places. Spending $2k on a shotgun only to be finicky would probably make my head explode, so I'd rather make a pump work if I'm overblowing the short stroking concern. Maybe training could get me past it.
    The M4 is a fine shotgun. It's expensive, heavy, has a more limited aftermarket and tends to be pickier about ammunition than the Beretta 1301. That doesn't make it a bad or unreliable shotgun because it's not. Every M4 I've seen (not that there have been scores of them) fed with ammunition it likes runs great.

    My personal choice is the Beretta 1301. I own two and I've seen literally hundreds more in class and I can count on one hand the number of problems I've seen with them. I'm about to have to start counting on the other hand because of an increase in issues from more recently produced shotguns I've encountered, but even then a lot of those are the result of some aftermarket parts that don't play well with the gun. (Aftermarket magazine followers, for example, are a terrible idea right now)

    The Beretta is lighter, cheaper, and doesn't care much what you feed it. The only ammunition my guns haven't fed are beanbag rounds...and I don't expect it to feed those anyway.

    I usually keep a 1301 staged for home defense. Lately because I've been too lazy to load my 1301 back up since they have been doing teaching duty, I've kept an 870 staged for home defense. I spend enough time behind both to not really care which one I'm using.

    People often ask what the point of a pump gun is in a world where the 1301 exists.

    Pump guns are still relevant defensive tools because I watch people who own 1301 shotguns come to class and for the first few reps stare blankly at their gun as they try to remember which button does what and what order they need to be pressed in. I don't have that problem because I shoot defensive shotguns far more than the typical person by exponential orders of magnitude. Most people are not training or practicing with defensive shotguns much if at all.

    I have a significant number of regular clients that treat coming to my class as their training and practice with the shotgun. That whole "recency" thing isn't something they've quite mastered yet. A good many of them have nowhere but the ranges I'm using that they can shoot anything but slugs...so it's understandable. I have clients that spend half the year in a country where they can't have so much as a pen knife, so ingraining skill is harder.

    So if you are going to be the kind of person who does a class once or twice a year as your training with the defensive shotgun, you're likely best served with a pump gun.

    If you're the kind of person who is going to spend 5 minutes a week on dryfire with your defensive shotgun, you go to the range once a month and work through a couple of boxes of ammo, and you take a class or two a year to use as a test of where you're at...well...you're probably just fine with a semi-auto.
    3/15/2016

  6. #16
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    I have always been told that the shotgun is the "thinking man's long arm", and no matter how you cut it, most shotguns have a more complicated manual-of-arms compared to a rifle
    Well, that depends on what you are used to. I 'member when semi-automatics with detachable box magazines were tough for people who grew up on tube fed magazines to understand.

    The typical shooter today comes to the defensive shotgun with no experience of the sporting shotgun. They grew up with Glocks and AR15's and that makes a manual repeater rather alien to them.

    The motivation to use the shotgun has morphed from "I have a shotgun, how do I use it for self defense?" of yesteryear to "Shotguns are really fuckin' effective at making bad guys stop what they're doing. How do I get me a piece of 'dat?"

    My last private session was with a client who wanted a pump shotgun ever since he used one in a video game as a kid. And then he went on to do significant academic work that involved sewing people up when they were seriously injured and encountering the real world results of somebody who had a catastrophic failure in their victim selection process and managed to end up on the wrong end of a 12 gauge with buckshot sealed the deal for him.

    Learning basic use of a shotgun may not be all that hard, but mastering seems like it'd be far more difficult (having to do slug select, learning various reloading techniques, ammo management, etc.)
    That's the beauty of a defensive shotgun. The basics of use will be sufficient to handle just about anything you are likely to face in the real world.

    I don't bother teaching slug select except in the more advanced classes, and then mainly because it's a good manipulations workout. Those who live on farms or large homesteads or in places where they are likely to encounter carnivores big enough to occasionally have human on the menu have a legit practical need to understand slugs and how to use them, but your typical urban and suburban homeowner isn't messing with slug select drills. I can take an average person and get them competent with a defensive pump shotgun in a day's work through sheer repetition. That's why I structure the training the way I do...everything is done from the shotgun in a "cruiser ready" or "closet ready" state. Every time they load the gun they're setting it up for that state. Every time they make the gun go bang they're charging it first.

    It actually works pretty well. They're learning that to make the gun shoot, they run the action which is handy because that's what you do to make the gun go bang after the first shot, too. So to make the gun go boom they run the action and pull the trigger and then keep doing that until it stops making noise.

    I teach the manipulations to be simple and easy to remember. If they can make a fist, they can do an emergency reload, etc. Everybody doesn't get as fast as I am with it, but I watch them succeed at it over and over again. There again, repetition and coaching.

    Unlike any other firearm, if I can teach them to charge the pump gun, mount the gun, and then fire one accurate shot a second then they've probably got enough skills to handle multiple bad guys inside their house in a home invasion scenario. The ability to press the trigger one time and almost guarantee immediate incapacitation is a considerable force multiplier.

    Speaking of urban and suburban, I've had an influx of people seeking out shotgun training from Baltimore. Largely people who know very little about firearms apart from they can get their hands on shotguns and nobody blinks an eye.
    3/15/2016

  7. #17
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    Great posts! As an aside, when the Covid wave first hit, the LGS was just full of folks buying pump guns. The Turkish guns flew off the shelves. I spent a bit of time in the store doing paper work on transfers and every time, the pump guns were going out the door.

    Another aside, the club I've been shooting at decided to due a two gun, shotgun/handgun match. You could just shoot your handgun. I was surprised that quite of few of the 'gamer' crowd didn't have shotguns and said they never fired one! They just shot the match for more practice with their game rig. I ran my 1300 Defender which was the gun I ran in Tom Givens' class. Worked fine.

    I've thought about moving on up to the 1301 world, but it's really not that useful for me and other expenses rule. Hit the lottery and I will.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Short-stroking can certainly happen. It can start happening, after decades of never happening, with one example being my aging self. (I not only lost my rhythm, but my pumping-arm wrist and should have not aged well.) I still use pump guns, that are stockless, and moved to the Benelli M2, for stocked shotguns. I would have moved to the Benelli M4, but I worked for a PD that allowed only the Remington 870, and the Benelli M1/M2. (No gas guns were ever approved, and the M4 is gas-assisted.) Now that I am retired from LEO-ing, my next shotgun may well be an M4.

    The Beretta 1301 is certainly the trend, around here at P-F, lately, but, I am too old to try to learn yet another safety button position. Not only that, but if the safety button is located at the rear of the trigger guard, it is more friendly to being operated ambidextrously.

    I live in the wet, green, vegetated, eastern edge of Texas, in a built-up area, so, a shotgun makes plenty of sense, as a defensive long gun. Out on the plains, or the desert, a rifle would be the better primary long gun.
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  9. #19
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    If youíre gonna go pump, Iíd say order a VangComp Signature model and rest easy knowing youíve got a good thunderstick. https://www.instagram.com/p/CigeuF2J...d=NjZiMGI4OTY=
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  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Generally shotguns that aren't working right will manifest that with a much lower round count. It's usually right away. When a client shows up with a gun that isn't running right the first thing I do is try running my ammunition through it as fast as possible. Running the gun at my speed usually tells me where to start looking to determine what's up. Often we find that their ammo is not working right with their gun. (Very common...the ammunition should be the first suspect when a gun isn't running) If I attempt to run the gun and it isn't working properly it's usually either because the gun is new and something is wrong out of the box, or the gun is really, really old and hasn't been maintained. Police trade-in guns often show up to class where the new owner had no idea that the gun never saw any maintenance while in police use and it needs all the springs to be replaced, a new safety detent (on Mossbergs) or new shell stops, etc.

    With a Benelli M4 you are most likely going to end up finding that problems running will come down to ammo. Benellis in general are pickier about ammunition than pump guns or the Beretta 1301.

    On a pump gun, if the gun runs through a couple hundred shells of birdshot well and you run a few rounds of your preferred buckshot through it without issue, it's probably fine. With a semi-auto you want to be more careful in evaluating your buckshot loads, especially if they are "low recoil" loads that haven't been thoroughly proven in your chosen gun.

    By that I mean that I've fired or seen fired many thousands of rounds of Federal Flight Control low recoil buckshot through 1301 shotguns without issue. I'd have no concerns about a 1301 running low recoil FFC buckshot if I picked up a new one tomorrow, so I wouldn't see the need to invest a bunch of money shooting FFC buckshot through the gun to verify function.

    If you settle on Uncle Wuzzy's Ammo Haus' chained buckshot load as your preferred munition, I haven't a clue how that's going to run in a 1301 so you'd best test it thoroughly. Etc.



    A 590A1 that's made right works just fine. I had a client a couple of weeks ago with a brand new 590A1 that ran like a raped ape. I've also had clients show up with 590A1's that had problems with the stamped parts that ended up locking up hard and had to go back to the factory to essentially be rebuilt.

    A defensive shotgun needs to be reliable above all else. A properly built 870 or 590 will serve very well as a defensive shotgun. You will eventually break something on a pump gun, but it will take a while to make that happen and most people aren't using their guns enough to get there.

    Round count depends on the class. Some of my classes have gone through nearly 300 shells in a day. Some have gone through a little more than 100. It depends on the clients in the class and what they're capable of. My Home Defense Shotgun class tends to be lower round count because people are usually drinking from the fire hose and they're not used to the sheer physicality of how I'm teaching them to run a shotgun. HDS runs every string of fire from a cruiser ready setup of the shotgun precisely because I only have people for a very limited amount of time and reps, so I need to ensure they master the most critical part of using a defensive shotgun: Getting it into action. A consequence of that is that they also get as many reps as possible setting the gun up for cruiser ready. This is especially important for people running semi-auto shotguns because each of them has their own unique control system that damn near nobody actually trains on enough.

    In HDS I have to teach a bit about home defense, teach a bit about the nature of the threat, teach a bit about the realities of violent crime, teach a bit about how the police ain't showing up, teach a bit about how shotguns work, teach them how to live safely with the gun, teach them about justifiable use of force, and then teach them how to use the gun. And during lunch I try to teach them how not to get shot by responding police. The rest of the time is spent teaching them how to load, manipulate, and shoot the gun and a little bit about using cover. It's 50 pounds of material I'm trying to cram into whatever vessel a client brings to the class. Some folks show up with a dump truck. Some show up with a thimble.

    The goal for that class is to prepare someone for the reality of home defense and to successfully articulate why they did what they did in the aftermath of using force.

    My Shotgun Skills class presumes someone has already had all that and just goes into greater depth about actually performing with the gun so we start making loud noises after the safety/med brief and we shoot as much as possible. That class is about repetition with coaching...coaching being a rare thing to encounter in training, unfortunately.



    No. Short stroking happens, but generally it's happening to people who have not ingrained the correct level of aggressiveness in running a pump gun. The only thing we do gently with a pump shotgun is press the trigger. Everything else is brute force, and as much of it as humanly possible. We have to run the action forcefully to the rear, and then forcefully forward. I run a pump gun with far more aggression now than I did when I first started hunting with one. In class believe it or not, I rarely see someone short stroke a pump gun. When I do it's usually because they are a smaller statured person with an ill-fitting gun. One of the reasons we want to get a shorter stock on a defensive pump is to allow the shooter to get as much muscle on the action as possible. I also take time in class to show folks that the next shell is only released from the magazine when the forend is at the absolute last amount of it's travel.

    Focusing on running the action hard and literally showing them that the next shell doesn't pop out until the forend can't move anymore tends to accomplish the feat of taking people who are fairly unfamiliar with defensive shotguns and turning them into people who run the action harder than Ike was on Tina. They're usually pretty tired by the end of the day, but their guns run.

    So I'm not super worried about people short stroking a pump gun once they've been introduced to the proper level of aggression with which to run one. When you run one like a viking berserker swinging an axe, short stroking stops becoming a problem. Then the only time I see it is if someone is trying to make me fall in love with how fast they can fire a followup shot with the pump. If they want to make me fall in love I give them the floor and let them try it a time or two, and invariably they make a mistake like short stroking and that's when I tell them that a fast click isn't nearly as impressive as a boom another tenth of a second later. The point gets made and they move on with their life.



    The M4 is a fine shotgun. It's expensive, heavy, has a more limited aftermarket and tends to be pickier about ammunition than the Beretta 1301. That doesn't make it a bad or unreliable shotgun because it's not. Every M4 I've seen (not that there have been scores of them) fed with ammunition it likes runs great.

    My personal choice is the Beretta 1301. I own two and I've seen literally hundreds more in class and I can count on one hand the number of problems I've seen with them. I'm about to have to start counting on the other hand because of an increase in issues from more recently produced shotguns I've encountered, but even then a lot of those are the result of some aftermarket parts that don't play well with the gun. (Aftermarket magazine followers, for example, are a terrible idea right now)

    The Beretta is lighter, cheaper, and doesn't care much what you feed it. The only ammunition my guns haven't fed are beanbag rounds...and I don't expect it to feed those anyway.

    I usually keep a 1301 staged for home defense. Lately because I've been too lazy to load my 1301 back up since they have been doing teaching duty, I've kept an 870 staged for home defense. I spend enough time behind both to not really care which one I'm using.

    People often ask what the point of a pump gun is in a world where the 1301 exists.

    Pump guns are still relevant defensive tools because I watch people who own 1301 shotguns come to class and for the first few reps stare blankly at their gun as they try to remember which button does what and what order they need to be pressed in. I don't have that problem because I shoot defensive shotguns far more than the typical person by exponential orders of magnitude. Most people are not training or practicing with defensive shotguns much if at all.

    I have a significant number of regular clients that treat coming to my class as their training and practice with the shotgun. That whole "recency" thing isn't something they've quite mastered yet. A good many of them have nowhere but the ranges I'm using that they can shoot anything but slugs...so it's understandable. I have clients that spend half the year in a country where they can't have so much as a pen knife, so ingraining skill is harder.

    So if you are going to be the kind of person who does a class once or twice a year as your training with the defensive shotgun, you're likely best served with a pump gun.

    If you're the kind of person who is going to spend 5 minutes a week on dryfire with your defensive shotgun, you go to the range once a month and work through a couple of boxes of ammo, and you take a class or two a year to use as a test of where you're at...well...you're probably just fine with a semi-auto.
    This has been invaluable information, and I'd like to speak more with you on mastering the shotgun. I grew up running 870s and Beretta 1301s with decent effect, but I have no experience in regard to shotguns in a defensive role besides one very specific instance of a home invasion. I need to do some deep thinking about how I want to approach the Shotgun, as a primary shoulder-fired gun or going with my 5.56, but I would really like to learn from you.

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