Why you shouldn't search with a weapon-mounted light on a handgun - Massad Ayoob

[Oldherkpilot]

What in the...

...I'll see myself out.

"Blues Blazing Hell" is what you were looking for.😁

[Oldherkpilot]

When the iPhone’s light can emerge from the phone body, on a flexible tentacle-like device, and move coaxially with my field of vision, then, it will be useful for searching and talking, at the same time, but only if I can use my mind to instantly activate and de-activate the illumination function. The tech is not there, just yet.

As it is, now, I hate using an iPhone to illuminate the task of Scoop-ee Doo, when out with the dogs, at night. A favored Surefire LX-series light is much less fumble-prone than a mobile phone designed to resemble a bar of much-used soap.

Ah, if we can crack the mind control on/off function, please make mine a head lamp in lieu of a stupid telephone!😁

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Need a USPSA division for this one. JCN can try it out for us. Haha!

[Oldherkpilot]

Need to get JMCK to make an IWB for this cutting-edge-technology rig;

If you add a Kevlar phone case you've got yourself a modern day shield! And you guys thought this thread was going nowhere.😁

[Jim Watson]

This is taking it too far for a regular home owner defending his home. The goal in this situation is not to immediately kill the home invaders, but instead kick them out or stop the threat primarily, and if that doesn't work, then you can use use deadly force. But sneaking around in your house with the lights off and sniping the home intruders in the cover of dark is just cringe and can get you into some legal troubles.

Times change. M. Ayoob himself once published that a nighttime intruder is all yours, deal with him as convenient, including ambush in a house you are more familiar with.

One reason I have a flashlight on the bedside table, right over the Pistol Drawer, is that my house gun is old enough that rails were not standard. I know the light works, it is the one that lit my way out of a burning house.

Low light/no light IDPA used to be done every once in a while, I guess the emphasis now is on throughput; dark operations are slow. I still know of a couple of places that run evening shoots; starting out in failing light, ending under floodlights. Flashlights not absolutely necessary but helpful if you are looking behind a barricade for targets in the shade.

[HCM]

This is taking it too far for a regular home owner defending his home. The goal in this situation is not to immediately kill the home invaders, but instead kick them out or stop the threat primarily, and if that doesn't work, then you can use use deadly force. But sneaking around in your house with the lights off and sniping the home intruders in the cover of dark is just cringe and can get you into some legal troubles.

I can’t decide if this is the most ignorant thing ever posted here or simply the most naive.

The goal in responding to a home invasion is to ensure the safety of your family and yourself by what ever means necessary.

If you have not come to terms with the idea that your life and the lives of your family are more valuable than the lives of a criminal that chooses to break into your home, and that whatever happens to the criminal is a consequence of what that criminal chose to do, then you need to reconsider whether or not you are really ready to apply deadly force, and if you should have a gun at all.

While having the best and brightest flashlight you can is necessary for properly, identifying threats, once a threat has been identified, taking half measures when full measures are required is a recipe for getting yourself and your family hurt or killed. Hesitation kills.

If you think you’re going to scare off every threat by merely having a gun and the flashlight on your iPhone, you may be in for a very rude awakening. A gun is not a ballistic lucky rabbits foot. Merely showing it to a criminal dedicated enough to break into an occupied house is not going to ward them off like showing a crucifix to a vampire.

[JCN]

Oh wow.

[Erick Gelhaus]

That video was 9:44 of my life that I won't get back.

racking to your eyes is a terrible idea for police and citizens. If one is inside a structure that is believed to be full of highly dangerous terrorists or elite enemy forces, you may well need to get around that structure with an immediate "shooting solution" ready to go...meaning you keep the gun oriented where you are looking, usually with the muzzle up just as he models in the video.

That's a catastrophically bad idea for a patrolman doing a building search. It's not as bad as saying that red dots on handguns reduce mistake of fact shootings, but it's kind of in the same vein. If the gun is pointing at what you're looking at, the gun is pointing at somebody you don't have legal justification to shoot yet....

Context is king and unfortunately there's a lot of stuff out there that's being taken from a context where it makes sense to a context where it doesn't.

Tim - I did not take his comment as searching through the sights. I took it as the eyes and the slightly lowered weapon (as he demo'd it) moving laterally together.

The primary application of a WML is clearing a dark house room by room that you don't know anything about what is inside.

Respectfully, no. One should not be searching with their pistol-mounted light. Its purpose is to allow you to have both hands on the pistol should you have to shoot in low light while wanting to keep the threat, target illuminated.

This is taking it too far for a regular home owner defending his home. The goal in this situation is not to immediately kill the home invaders, but instead kick them out or stop the threat primarily, and if that doesn't work, then you can use use deadly force. But sneaking around in your house with the lights off and sniping the home intruders in the cover of dark is just cringe and can get you into some legal troubles.

Can I ask about your legal background for these statements?

I don't need to be trained by a professional to kick some home intruders from my home. The last thing I want to do is turn my home into some "tactical battleground". And the main goal isn't to kill the invaders; that's taking things too far. The main goal instead is to kick out the intruders.

I'm fortunate enough to occasionally run decent, normal humans through force-on-force scenarios involving various events and encounters with armed role players. Based on those experiences, one's main goal should be hunkering down in a defensible place. Letting the BadGuys come to you is a better option than trying to kick them out.

[mmc45414]

Low light/no light IDPA used to be done every once in a while, I guess the emphasis now is on throughput; dark operations are slow. I still know of a couple of places that run evening shoots; starting out in failing light, ending under floodlights. Flashlights not absolutely necessary but helpful if you are looking behind a barricade for targets in the shade.

I hate shooting indoors, but you can turn the lights out and practice if you want to.

I have shot two low/no light matches, one was a local club match decades ago with night sights but no WML (this was probably back when the SAS were using hose clamps and mag lights...). On some stages the start signal was when they turned out all of the lights. This was one of my first real experiences with my newly installed night sights, and I placed way above my typical placement. I came in second, beaten only by the guy that hosted and setup the match. I attribute this sudden success to actually looking at my nifty new sights...

The other one was just a few months ago, and I took the PCC option with the weapon mounted light, because my no light carbine experience was pretty much none, really. It was very well run, with everyone on the range required to zip tie glow sticks to themselves front and rear. It was all knockdown steel and I am not sure it took any longer than any other match with KD targets. If they run it again this year I will probably do it again, this time with pistol. Also with targets hidden behind barrels not sure more lumens is always your friend.

[Wise_A]

The 911 operator ain't there to guide you through a manhunt. They'll tell you to drop the gun, seek cover, and wait for help. If you simply MUST clear the house, then let someone else handle the comms, or handle them yourself after your hero moment passes.

I don't speak for everyone in the industry, but I don't suck at what I do, and I'm not telling anyone to do anything. My standard line is "do what you think is best". My primary goal is to keep the line open so I can communicate later to keep my guys from having to shoot you, or you from shooting my guys.

Respectfully, no. One should not be searching with their pistol-mounted light. Its purpose is to allow you to have both hands on the pistol should you have to shoot in low light while wanting to keep the threat, target illuminated.

This was my logic--I have one, but my use-case is incredibly niche. I work evening shift, so I'm constantly driving across the countryside (read: legitimately dark) between 0000 and 0400. And that also means that help isn't THAT far away, since I'm leaving the place where the boys and girls that can help me work, so having some cluck at gunpoint while playing with my phone is probably more likely than normal. I still carry a rechargeable Streamlight on my off-hand side, but adding a WML cost me absolutely nothing in concealment and practically nothing in terms of weight.

The last thing I want to do is turn my home into some "tactical battleground".

All the world is a "tactical battleground"--my home included. You do not get to pick where the fight will take place. You do get to pick how prepared you are to fight in the places you commonly are. The parking lot at work is 75 yards from the back to the front gate--so I practice with a reduced-size IPSC steel target at 75 yards. The mailboxes in my neighborhood are almost exactly 100 yards apart, and the furthest line-of-sight is .9MIL of elevation away. From my front door to the street is 35 yards. The interior staircase is a chokepoint and I can protect all the bedrooms with a safe background from my bedroom door. The front door is best-covered from the edge of the hallway leading to my bedroom. Trying to deal with a subj at the front from downstairs is a fucking shitshow. The best cover (kitchen fridge) can't see the front door, and there's no edge or corner to use for cover on the other side of that corridor. On the other side, there is cover in the living room and dining room, but both of these rooms are corner rooms with windows on 2 sides that have cover from the concrete foundation and exterior wall and are thus a fucking shitshow if I'm not the only guy with a gun. As the front door from downstairs is a fucking shitshow for defenders, house policy is that nobody--nobody--is received at the front door.

I am not trained in any way that matters to the people around here. I read a little, I study stuff, I'm kinda observant. My dad was well-versed and was a city cop and said a lot of words into my ears growing up, some of which stuck. You don't need to sit there and fortify your cabinets with steel plating, but thinking about your home from a tactical perspective isn't the worst idea in the world and takes little effort and no change in lifestyle. Some of the things I observe--who the fuck cares what the elevation is to hit a subj at the corner stopsign?--are not likely to be useful. Realizing that the living room can be flanked from cover and concealment and just how hard defending the front door would be is really useful, because I can do things to avoid having a fight there. Practicing at the distance between the front gate and the end of the parking lot means I know that POI=POA all the way, and that I can go 4/5 or 5/5 all day (and night) at that distance, which could come in handy if some nutter pulls up and starts dumping mags from that gate.

That's what mindset is--winning the fight before you have it through training, practice, preparation, and equipment. A good start would be replacing the cell phone with an inexpensive-but-rugged flashlight with a tail switch. You can get a Streamlight for well under $100, you don't need all the lumens, it just needs to be easy-to-operate, easy-to-grip, and tough enough to hammer on without breaking.