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Thread: Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    My strong preference for Pistol-Forum--especially in a technical thread--is to focus on techniques and principles, rather than criticize people.

    Hwansik isn't here to defend himself and 1000's of non-PF members are going to read this, so here goes: At USPSA CO Nationals, Hwansik finished 2nd in 2017 and 2018, and 3rd in 2020, so I would count him as a Tier 1 competitor. He has helped a lot people think about shooting in a sensible and methodical way, and I hear great things about his in-person classes. He's a super nice guy as well. I would like to train with him sometime soon.

    What I especially like about Hwansik's approach to grip is he doesn't prescribe the One Right Way to grip a gun. He provides at least 3 possible techniques, and demonstrates how to test which works best for any person. As well, I appreciate how he separates grip from the other aspects of the Isosceles posture. IMO, he has the best material available on this, although a lot of it is behind the PSTG paywall.
    I think that’s fair.

    But I think people can waste a lot of time trying to validate other people’s half baked ideas. Like you said with your journey, rabbit hole.

    Some of his non solutions to simple problems like his floppy broken holster or cutting his shoe and duct taping it… doesn’t smell like high level problem solving. He may be a high level problem solver but I just don’t have the time to waste being distracted in case he is not.

    I actually paid for his video commentary as a training method before finding the Max Michel patreon and the difference in rationale and reasoning behind things was an order of magnitude different in the way they approached the same topic.

    So from those personal experiences, I’m sticking with the Max method.

    I played with an LCP with Wheeler laser simulating my normal draw just to see what it would look like.

    I don’t know if it really shows anything meaningful, but this is approximately how the muzzle gets to target for me. With a holster I would have to draw upwards more first so I expect the approach angle to be shallower in real life.




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  2. #62
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    One note. The video above is from an AIWB type start position. If starting from 3 o clock, the muzzle path would be even more direct.

    It’s actually something I work ergos on in placing and canting holsters.

    Most linear path with least muzzle angle translation is most efficient.

    Most efficient is fastest.

    Most efficient is least variable.

    Least variable is most reproducible.

    I work magazine placement the same way.

    You can get by with less efficient physics.

    And when there’s a secondary reason for less efficiency (like retention or thumb pec), that’s a different situation.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig_Fiend View Post
    On the subject of grip strength, figured I'd post this for posterity sake. If you ever do isolated grip strength training, be warned! Treat it like any other strength training. Reps, sets, and plenty of rest. Don't just bang out endless reps in front of the TV like it's nothing. Otherwise you WILL pay for it and life might end up being pretty miserable. This is probably not necessary for most to do in isolation anyways.

    Between having abused Captains of Crush grippers too much (I think #2 was the highest I got), a preexisting wrist injury, overgripping, plus having an aggressively cammed forward Glock grip for so many years, I feel like an old man now.
    When I used these grip trainers, I held the device with 4 fingers, and my trigger finger pointed forward. The idea was keeping trigger finger separated from the process. I believed that doing so gave me better trigger control. Well known target shooters proposed the idea in the 50's and 60's. Did it???

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    I hear great things about Rob as an in-person instructor. However, I have found his video and written material nearly impossible to understand. It's almost like he's being purposely vague and confusing.

    This doesn't need to be mysterious or complicated, and with high-speed video in nearly ever cell phone it's relatively easy to diagnose grip issues.
    I trained with Rob (due to his accomplishments and due to recommendations from PF) and I noticed a bit of what you are referring to but I don’t think it’s purposeful, it reminds me more of the Enos book in that if he’s limited to a three minute video or a 500 word document it’s not going to come across all the way.

    He was very open re: his personal methods of training, his beliefs and truths and even questioning those in front of the class. He also delved into issues when asked - I needed more info/instruction on grip and he took the time to address it fully in front of the class and invite more people to explore the instruction.
    When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk. -Tuco
    Today is victory over yourself of yesterday... -Miyamoto Musashi

  5. #65
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    May 2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    When I used these grip trainers, I held the device with 4 fingers, and my trigger finger pointed forward. The idea was keeping trigger finger separated from the process. I believed that doing so gave me better trigger control. Well known target shooters proposed the idea in the 50's and 60's. Did it???
    I do the opposite - I extend my arm as if shooting unsupported and hold the grip closed with 4 fingers and move my trigger finger to count how long I hold for. I have no way of knowing if it makes a difference in my shooting, but I like to think it does...
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

  6. #66
    Site Supporter P.E. Kelley's Avatar
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    Interesting takes on grip, grip angles and strength.

    I probably should not enter into this, but I am not sure any of this matters.
    If we have to Micro anything then we are missing the Macro.

    Grip it and rip it. Be mindful of the aiming elements and break shots.

    Glock, Webley revolver, 1911 or Compact Keltec. They all respond the the same to input.

    I have proven (at least to myself) that all handguns can be managed to excellent outcomes
    without over thinking. (over 70 unfired handguns run at matches right out of the box with 80+% wins)

    Any pain I have experienced has come from "over training" not grip angles. Heavy guns
    will inflame my draw arm elbow if I work on draws too much.

    IHMSA in the late 80" with big boomers to classic bullseye events and USPSA in a two/three week span, all
    with different tools.

    All were managed without overthinking my grip.

    Just another view.
    Respectfully,
    Patrick
    Guns are just machines and without you they can do no harm, nor any good

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