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Thread: Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

  1. #21
    Member Wake27's Avatar
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    Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

    Did not expect to see so many having issues with this. My assumption has always been that seeing people with KT tape or similar when shooting was because of injuries caused through mechanisms other than shooting and the shooting just irritated those injuries.

    I struggled a lot with the grip angle on my 19.4 and never felt comfortable holding the gun. I experimented with the GFA (this was years ago when they first came out) which helped as far as pointability/proper index from the draw, but it still always felt awkward and uncomfortable in the hand. I also have slightly smaller hands so the grip felt too blocky and I struggled to reach controls, necessitating the Tango Down mag and slide releases.

    Then, just because I wanted to Gucci my Glock up into a RS, I sent it to Overwatch Precision for a full stippled and figured I’d have them remove the finger grooves since lots of people seemed to do that and it looks weird to have stippled grooves IMO.

    I’ve never felt like my Glock was uncomfortable in hand nor pointed improperly for me on the draw again. Similarly, I love Gen 5s. I’ve also not noticed any issues transitioning between different guns, though I rarely do so now and it’s only occasionally to my 9mm 1911. I almost never shoot my wife’s M&P now that I like my Glocks so much (I bought the M&P in search of my Glock killer).

    My left shoulder has been dislocated twice which resulted in scoping of the cartilage labrum. RoM isn’t great and when I work it hard (Murph, Barbara, etc), it requires extensive stretching and recovery to avoid a massive knot that causes discomfort in my wrist and elbow, to the point that it’s often my limiting factor when doing push-ups. Every AR I have has a shorty BCM grip near the gas block, in the swept back config, because gripping a long gun in the traditional manner is uncomfortable for that wrist and quickly becomes irritated if I’m trying to pull it into me so it’s absolutely affected my rifle shooting.

    I’ve never noticed any discomfort with a pistol though. Just my experience FWIW.


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    Last edited by Wake27; 09-08-2022 at 07:54 PM.

  2. #22
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Is that your normal strong thumb position? If not, disregard.

    Without supporting the frame up high with the proximal thumb joint it’ll be hard to prevent shots from leaking left.
    Not really. It's higher for a freestyle of course and for SHO I curl lock it down farther. I've worked SHO styles hard for a long time and do not get good results with the thumb high (much study of Tim Herron, Mike Seeklander, a coach as well). My digits are extremely flexible ie double jointed as they say. Thumb flexed downward all the way.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #23
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    We've revisited a lot of these issues over the years. For example:
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-trigger-speed

    Here are a few thoughts and some old posts:

    Overgripping the gun has caused numerous injuries that I am personally aware of, including my own. I owe Hwansik a lot because it was his videos that helped me move beyond that. As far as index goes, I can go back and forth between Glocks and new model CZs (S2, P-07) without changing my vertical index. EDIT: See this image for how similar they are. My strong hand is mostly on top of the hump, because my hands are smedium sized. Sigs, 1911s, and especially Berettas do NOT index the same in my hands.

    I find lateral index errors to be much more problematic than vertical index problems, and when I'm switching from a CZ to Glock--especially a large frame Glock I pay special attention to how my support side thumb 'indexes' the side of the frame. My horizontal alignment is usually good as long as that thumb is touching and extended. Even if my strong hand grip is really jacked, I can usually crush the horizontal error out with the support hand.

    I do not modify the frames or grips any of my polymer guns other than to apply grip tape. If a Glock didn't work for me, I'd use something else. The idea of being able to pick up any Glock anywhere and shoot it is attractive to me.

    Some guns have grips that defy a repeatable index for me, and the common theme is a very round grip that's supposed to be ergonomic. When the grip is so ambiguous that I can't tell immediately if I'm gripping it wrong, that's a problem. OG p320 grip modules, M&P, and one of my least favorite guns, the Shield, all demand special attention when I shoot them. I like squarish slab-sided grips.
    Exceptional PF post about shooting! I am totally over fretting about whether I'm gripping hard enough. I chased that ghost pointlessly for a spell. I grip hardish. Done. Work on other aspects. Most important for me is to focus the gripping pressure primarily with the middle finger (esp important to eliminate the miss left for me with Glocks and I rarely see that now) and don't sweat the lower placed fingers. Trying to literally crush the pistol grip borks that.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post

    While you might be able to “shoot” different guns in the same session, I’m wagering that you’re micro correcting with vision and your index is good enough that you don’t notice with the kind of shooting you’re doing.

    In my hands, once the gun is mounted and the dot is in vision doesn’t matter what grip angle because you’ve already corrected.

    The only time you can really pick up a difference if you’re a good shooter like you are is full out speed index with minimal time for correction.

    If you’re doubting this, do this experiment (I have).

    Pick three different angle guns.

    Pick a stringent index to vision requirement that doesn’t allow time for more than the tiniest micro correction.

    Put three index cards side by side at 7 yards.

    Set a 0.9 second par time and do single shot draws, switching guns and targets frequently.

    I will bet you a PF dollar that the differences in grip angle and index come out there.

    Anything slower and you’ll be able to micro correct on stabilization.

    It’s physics. You are either changing your grip for the different angles. Or you are micro correcting after presentation.

    I notice the different in index at full speed. But not much at Gabe White standard speed (which is stringent but still allows for micro correction).

    So I can “shoot” any gun, but I’m still aware of the difference in index that only really manifests when I don’t have time to micro correct.


    Good info and ideas to practice with!

    Hey JCN I sent a quick PM question about micro correcting.

  5. #25
    On the subject of grip strength, figured I'd post this for posterity sake. If you ever do isolated grip strength training, be warned! Treat it like any other strength training. Reps, sets, and plenty of rest. Don't just bang out endless reps in front of the TV like it's nothing. Otherwise you WILL pay for it and life might end up being pretty miserable. This is probably not necessary for most to do in isolation anyways.

    Between having abused Captains of Crush grippers too much (I think #2 was the highest I got), a preexisting wrist injury, overgripping, plus having an aggressively cammed forward Glock grip for so many years, I feel like an old man now.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVP View Post
    Good info and ideas to practice with!

    Hey JCN I sent a quick PM question about micro correcting.
    With his permission:

    Quote Originally Posted by EVP
    Hey JCN, your post on indexing and micro correcting got me thinking.

    I am playing with a different gun then my glocks( Elite LTT 92 RDO). It’s a little slower on the draw the my Glocks.

    I have been doing dryfire draws from concealment to a paster at 5 yards. I am mostly concerned with my first draw on the paster. Just curious what is acceptable and what to strive for? I obviously put a lot more weight on my first cold draw. Sometimes I index right to it, sometimes I am a little off and can micro correct to it pretty effortless. Is there always going to be some form of micro correcting going on?

    Also thanks for your great posts on P-F that really add great info and data to the subject!
    Some points of physics:
    Draws with heavier and longer guns are slower than lighter and shorter guns. Just because of pure muscle limitations. You can throw a 2 pound ball faster than a 5 pound one.

    But the trade off benefit of a heavier gun is more muzzle stability for a given trigger press and presentation.

    So then we have to get to the definition of what “Micro correct” means to me and to you.

    If there’s no correction, then basically you could draw to a target with eyes closed and then open them after the press and that’s where the pure index, no correction would be.

    At a certain speed, you’re basically committing to the trigger press before the dot gets to target.

    There are different levels of Micro correct. Where I can tighten my hand and correct a few MOA without any delay.

    Then there are wrist corrections and grosser arm corrections.

    In general a Micro correct would be within one or two pasters off (at 5 yards assuming 1 inch paster).

    For me, there is usually some level of Micro correct depending on the target difficulty.

    For example at 7 yards on a 1.0 concealed draw there’s still time for me to pull a body Charlie index into an alpha.

    But at 0.8 concealed draw there isn’t.

    At 0.8 concealed draw I might Charlie 2/10 times maybe? But at 1.0 seconds maybe 0.5 Charlie out of 10? Maybe?

    So I think developing full out index speed without correction is good training.

    But for most practical application a 0.1-0.2 time to Micro correct and get good hits is often worth it unless very close or very fast requirements.

    If that make sense.

  7. #27
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    Grip pressure

    I think I probably use a pretty light grip pressure compared to most. I like aggressive texture that sticks to my hand rather than trying to hold on to it.

    Big fan of skate tape and stippling.

    Smooth guns make me have to work too hard.

    EDIT:

    I just checked and the amount of grip pressure I use is approximately what I would use to shake the hand of a 60 year old woman.
    Last edited by JCN; 11-07-2022 at 07:05 PM.

  8. #28
    I have been reading a lot of old western/cowboy novels lately. The latest one I could argue that there was one 3 sentence point that the entire story depended on. Bad guy draws, fires, misses vs good guy draws, fires second, but hits the bad guy. See guys, indexing, and micro correcting have been around for a long time! A little more seriously, I am a huge Beretta 92 fan and have watched pretty much every video Ernest Langdon has done. One of his points is, on the draw, rather than bringing the gun up on a straight diagonal path from the holster to firing position, bring it up closer to the chest and then push it out on a close to horizontal straight line. The term I remember him using regarding the push out, is it gives time to clean up the sight picture. Another name for it might be micro correction.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    One of his points is, on the draw, rather than bringing the gun up on a straight diagonal path from the holster to firing position, bring it up closer to the chest and then push it out on a close to horizontal straight line. The term I remember him using regarding the push out, is it gives time to clean up the sight picture. Another name for it might be micro correction.
    ToddG taught this as the “press-out”. It also helps when needing to avoid banging the gun on something that’s right in front of you: steering wheel, counter, airplane seat, etc.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    I have been reading a lot of old western/cowboy novels lately. The latest one I could argue that there was one 3 sentence point that the entire story depended on. Bad guy draws, fires, misses vs good guy draws, fires second, but hits the bad guy. See guys, indexing, and micro correcting have been around for a long time! A little more seriously, I am a huge Beretta 92 fan and have watched pretty much every video Ernest Langdon has done. One of his points is, on the draw, rather than bringing the gun up on a straight diagonal path from the holster to firing position, bring it up closer to the chest and then push it out on a close to horizontal straight line. The term I remember him using regarding the push out, is it gives time to clean up the sight picture. Another name for it might be micro correction.
    And as another thing, you’ll notice that some people can make do with casting presentation, like throwing the muzzle up and over the target. Some people do this and are reasonably proficient. But that’s not optimal and it won’t show the issues with grip angle that a straight muzzle press will. And you won’t get the benefit of tracking and micro correcting on the way out. That’s not meant to be an insult, it’s an observation. If your muzzle changes angle / rotation, it’ll have less stability at speed. That’s just fact.

    So when people say they don’t notice a difference, you have to have a critical eye on whether there is a difference that they’re not able to appreciate versus there not being a difference.

    When we talk about a straight press out, it’s a horizontal muzzle press out and basically a shallow rising press out so you can pick up and micro correct the dot 3/4 of the way out without any muzzle angular movement.

    This is a video I did on the way my muzzle doesn’t change angle on the draw. Done at full speed but shown in super duper slow motion as a contrast to a wave or muzzle angle changing draw.

    By virtue of arm geometry, the gun will rise but the key point is that the muzzle stays horizontal the whole terminal press out.



    If you imagine a bore sight laser in your gun, an efficient draw would have the muzzle on low thoracic from a high compressed ready and stay on target during the press out and then refined on the last 3/4 out with vision as the gun rises to high thoracic. But the muzzle is horizontal and on target the whole time from the second position of the draw.

    My draw (modeled after Max Michel) is a draw and bring gun up first and then shallow rising press out with muzzle on target. In an emergency close utilization, I’m on target early and the muzzle never points up and over the head of the bad guy.

    Compare that to a casting draw where there is a huge angular muzzle change in the last 1/2 of the press out. If you impart angular momentum, you have to STOP the angular momentum and that takes time and adds wobble.

    [IMAGES PENDING]

    For an angular cast draw, the grip angle doesn’t matter nearly as much because you’re having to pass through the rotation angle at the end anyway.

    For a straight(ish) press out the gun comes out high and presses out with muzzle on target the entire time so I can break with confidence without delay.



    Gamer holster view (play at 0.25x) gun comes up early and not much vertical muzzle angle change.



    As for polymer, I’m using cut up Sig grip modules that are cheap to buy new ($20 on ebay) because the melting point is very high and they’re very durable. I think it would be pretty hard to work with re molds and release. The mold would have to be metal to prevent it from melting and the polymer would have to be pressed in I would think. Kydex would be a lot easier to work with.

    You could probably silicone spray the gun, heat Sig polymer to make a female mold and then take advantage of the differential melting points to then use kydex as the male product if that makes sense.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 11-08-2022 at 10:52 AM.

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