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Thread: Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

  1. #1

    Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

    Recently I listened to a podcast with Hwansik Kim, and watched a video on a neutral way to grip the pistol, that meshed with some things I have been doing lately.

    The cliff notes version of the podcast is as follows. A natural grip angle allows you to apply the most grip strength without injuring yourself and optimally indexes the dot or sights. Even with pistols that donít have a natural grip angle, like a Glock, you can grip the pistol in such a way, using a natural grip angle, so that the sights index, and you can apply maximum strength without hurting yourself. If your grip causes you to cam your wrists in an unnatural way, the belief is you can more easily injure yourself.

    It turns out that I had already adopted such a grip without realizing why, and it allows me to easily go from 2011 to Glock, and have the pistol point correctly for me. I havenít had shooting pain forever.

    For people shooting 2011 and similar grip angle pistols, there may not be anything to learn. However, if you shoot a Glock grip angle and either have pain or feel like you need to cam forward to make the pistol index properly, it might be worth checking this out.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #2
    Glocks have destroyed my wrists, forearms and elbows.

    The Glock grip angle is trash.

    Got any pictures for us in regard to how to "properly" grip a Glock? Or, a link to the podcast?

  3. #3
    Oh Dremel, Dremel, Dremel JCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magsz View Post
    Glocks have destroyed my wrists, forearms and elbows.

    The Glock grip angle is trash.

    Got any pictures for us in regard to how to "properly" grip a Glock? Or, a link to the podcast?
    In the meantime, my favorite Glock has had hump reduction surgery and I LOVE the way it points and indexes now.

    Perfectly like my CZs now.

    Here compared to a stock humper.

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    There are places that can do the work for you, or 30 minutes in the garage with a Dremel, BrŻlťe torch and Soldering iron.

    Itís made my unloved Glocks loved again
    Currently Iím still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Recently I listened to a podcast with Hwansik Kim, and watched a video on a neutral way to grip the pistol, that meshed with some things I have been doing lately.

    The cliff notes version of the podcast is as follows. A natural grip angle allows you to apply the most grip strength without injuring yourself and optimally indexes the dot or sights. Even with pistols that donít have a natural grip angle, like a Glock, you can grip the pistol in such a way, using a natural grip angle, so that the sights index, and you can apply maximum strength without hurting yourself. If your grip causes you to cam your wrists in an unnatural way, the belief is you can more easily injure yourself.

    It turns out that I had already adopted such a grip without realizing why, and it allows me to easily go from 2011 to Glock, and have the pistol point correctly for me. I havenít had shooting pain forever.

    For people shooting 2011 and similar grip angle pistols, there may not be anything to learn. However, if you shoot a Glock grip angle and either have pain or feel like you need to cam forward to make the pistol index properly, it might be worth checking this out.
    I'm not buying it. Kim is what 33 years old? And only been shooting about 10 years. His bio page says he was not into sports or the physical culture otherwise growing up. Musculature and tendons basically virgin until he took up a huge volume of shooting. Not sure what that means, just an observation of apparent reality.

    He should re-visit the topic in 20 years. If anything I'd prefer the leverage of the Glock grip angle. (ref Surf videos of the olden days)
    Last edited by JHC; 09-08-2022 at 07:29 AM.
    "Iíve come to realize manual transmission cars and 1911s have something in commonóa person who steals one probably wonít know how to use it." - Hideeho

  5. #5
    Can someone share a link to the video for this? I found the audio but it there something missing only listneing and not seeing what is demonstrated?

  6. #6
    Hwansik's theoretical output is always interesting but I have questioned the extent to which it is generalizable. Seems like it resonates with some people but not others. @GJM talked to me about this over the phone and without having the visuals I couldn't understand how this grip would not affect other aspects negatively.

    In regards to other strength/pain etc, yes, the larger the angle of ulnar deviation is, the higher is loss of grip strength and tendons stretch. Real question is if 4 degrees between Glock's and conventional angles is enough to make the difference between "everything okay" and "painful and traumatic".
    ďWell," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  7. #7
    Hwansik's belief is that a natural grip angle allows you to apply more grip strength, while minimizing injury and optimally indexing the sights. He isn't suggesting a Glock is bad. He is suggesting that by opening up your hand on the bottom of the Glock grip, you can change the grip angle to a more natural angle. This allows the Glock hump to protrude behind your grip, leveling the pistol. When I cover the entire Glock back strap with my strong hand, the Glock points high for me unless I cam forward with strong and support hand, that hurts some when I grip hard.

    When I checked how I hold the grip, I was already doing it with the Glock, 2011 and Sig, which might explain why I have been able to shoot all those guns in one session and not have issues with index. My wife has been gripping the pistol the same way. This all happened before we became aware of Hwansik's theory.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #8
    Oh Dremel, Dremel, Dremel JCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Hwansik's theoretical output is always interesting but I have questioned the extent to which it is generalizable. Seems like it resonates with some people but not others. @GJM talked to me about this over the phone and without having the visuals I couldn't understand how this grip would not affect other aspects negatively.

    In regards to other strength/pain etc, yes, the larger the angle of ulnar deviation is, the higher is loss of grip strength and tendons stretch. Real question is if 4 degrees between Glock's and conventional angles is enough to make the difference between "everything okay" and "painful and traumatic".
    Completely agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Hwansik's belief is that a natural grip angle allows you to apply more grip strength, while minimizing injury and optimally indexing the sights. He isn't suggesting a Glock is bad. He is suggesting that by opening up your hand on the bottom of the Glock grip, you can change the grip angle to a more natural angle. This allows the Glock hump to protrude behind your grip, leveling the pistol. When I cover the entire Glock back strap with my strong hand, the Glock points high for me unless I cam forward with strong and support hand, that hurts some when I grip hard.

    When I checked how I hold the grip, I was already doing it with the Glock, 2011 and Sig, which might explain why I have been able to shoot all those guns in one session and not have issues with index. My wife has been gripping the pistol the same way. This all happened before we became aware of Hwansik's theory.
    Along with @YVK I donít buy it. Either you change your grip between different gun angles or your index changes subtly.

    While you might be able to ďshootĒ different guns in the same session, Iím wagering that youíre micro correcting with vision and your index is good enough that you donít notice with the kind of shooting youíre doing.

    In my hands, once the gun is mounted and the dot is in vision doesnít matter what grip angle because youíve already corrected.

    The only time you can really pick up a difference if youíre a good shooter like you are is full out speed index with minimal time for correction.

    If youíre doubting this, do this experiment (I have).

    Pick three different angle guns.

    Pick a stringent index to vision requirement that doesnít allow time for more than the tiniest micro correction.

    Put three index cards side by side at 7 yards.

    Set a 0.9 second par time and do single shot draws, switching guns and targets frequently.

    I will bet you a PF dollar that the differences in grip angle and index come out there.

    Anything slower and youíll be able to micro correct on stabilization.

    Itís physics. You are either changing your grip for the different angles. Or you are micro correcting after presentation.

    Sometimes Iíll do a cheat for my index to correct. Like with a stock Glock Iíll purposely pick a spot a couple inches lower than I actually want to index to. If I rip my CZ index then the dot is on target just a little high so Iíll account for that in my spot selection.


    And because itís the ďshow me how you know what you know,Ē the example is the Alien which has a very Glock like angle. Itís very different than my normal CZ angle.



    I notice the different in index at full speed. But not much at Gabe White standard speed (which is stringent but still allows for micro correction).

    So I can ďshootĒ any gun, but Iím still aware of the difference in index that only really manifests when I donít have time to micro correct.

    Iíll wager thatís where youíre at too. Do the full speed index test and see where the shots go. Test your hypothesis with experimentation and data!
    Currently Iím still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter JHC's Avatar
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    Spoke to GJM and got more details of what Kim is explaining then sent him these two pics of how I grip a Glock since forever day 1 and he indicated this is more of less what Kim is promoting.

    So I guess I was too critical in my first post.

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    "Iíve come to realize manual transmission cars and 1911s have something in commonóa person who steals one probably wonít know how to use it." - Hideeho

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Spoke to GJM and got more details of what Kim is explaining then sent him these two pics of how I grip a Glock since forever day 1 and he indicated this is more of less what Kim is promoting.

    So I guess I was too critical in my first post.

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    I would call that a barefoot grip technique.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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