Primary & Secondary Deep Dive into Handgun Bullets

[Tokarev]

ICE used to conduct testing for CBP, and I think they used an 8 or 9 inch penetration minimum. CBP is now using the 12 inch minimum.

CBP now has a third-party conduct testing for them. Testing consists of bare gel, light clothing, heavy clothing and windshield.

I seem to remember browsing through our old test data when Altoona was still DOJ/INS. The 40 was only required to penetrate the 8-9" or whatever. But that was also the 155gr stuff. Later, when we switched to the 180gr, I think Altoona bumped the penetration up to the 12" requirement.

Also I think the shallow penetration requirement was bare gel alone and was probably more to see how well a bullet might expand and stay together. That's just a guess but we're talking 1995 or 1996 time frame. There weren't some of the durable barrier blind bullets around back then that we may take for granted nowadays.

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[5pins]

Ok, I just did some research and ICE changed their penetrating depth depending on the cartridge used. 10 inches for the .38, 11 inches for the 9mm and .40, and 12 inches for the .357 sig. This was before they adopted the Sig so I don't know if they are still using those criteria.

[Tokarev]

Ok, I just did some research and ICE changed their penetrating depth depending on the cartridge used. 8 inches for the .38, 11 inches for the 9mm and .40, and 12 inches for the .357 sig. This was before they adopted the Sig so I don't know if they are still using those criteria.

These are minimum requirements regardless of barrier?

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[5pins]

These are minimum requirements regardless of barrier?

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I just corrected my original post. It's 10 inches for the .38 except for the windshield test, that is 8 inches. Infact all the tests are 2 inches less for the windshield.

[Tokarev]

I just corrected my original post. It's 10 inches for the .38 except for the windshield test, that is 8 inches. Infact all the tests are 2 inches less for the windshield.

Yeah that makes sense.

That's one big different between ICE and FBI protocols. ICE does not allow severe bullet deviation after passing through auto glass. I don't think FBI views that as a disqualification as long as the penetration minimum is met.

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[DiscipulusArmorum]

Slight hijack related to another recent P&S episode ("Optimal is not Universal") - In that episode, Chuck Haggard said something that really took me aback, which was that he'd never seen 147 HST expand from a gun smaller than a G19. Did he mention or elaborate on that in this episode? One of the reasons I chose 147 HST years ago was that it was supposed to be a good performer in both the short guns and duty-sized guns. I'm wondering if the reported changes to HST that have occurred since then make it a poor choice for short barreled pistols.

[LockedBreech]

Slight hijack related to another recent P&S episode ("Optimal is not Universal") - In that episode, Chuck Haggard said something that really took me aback, which was that he'd never seen 147 HST expand from a gun smaller than a G19. Did he mention or elaborate on that in this episode? One of the reasons I chose 147 HST years ago was that it was supposed to be a good performer in both the short guns and duty-sized guns. I'm wondering if the reported changes to HST that have occurred since then make it a poor choice for short barreled pistols.

I am not familiar with any testing data that shows 147-grain HST having any expansion deficiencies, regardless of barrel length. It's what I carry in my Shield Plus, what I have my girl carry in her P365, and what I have my mom carry in my old PPS M1. Any round can fail now and again, but all of the testing data I have seen shows the HST is one of the best short-barrel rounds on the market and it would surprise me greatly if that was an issue now.

[5pins]

23:30 mark.

[HCM]

I seem to remember browsing through our old test data when Altoona was still DOJ/INS. The 40 was only required to penetrate the 8-9" or whatever. But that was also the 155gr stuff. Later, when we switched to the 180gr, I think Altoona bumped the penetration up to the 12" requirement.

Also I think the shallow penetration requirement was bare gel alone and was probably more to see how well a bullet might expand and stay together. That's just a guess but we're talking 1995 or 1996 time frame. There weren't some of the durable barrier blind bullets around back then that we may take for granted nowadays.

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Yes, that would have been the mid 1990s. Those were the sane people who were trying to duplicate the 357 mag performance with a .40 cal. The last issued .357 I saw was Remington 110 grain JHP and they were stuck on light fast bullets.

[HCM]

Ok, I just did some research and ICE changed their penetrating depth depending on the cartridge used. 10 inches for the .38, 11 inches for the 9mm and .40, and 12 inches for the .357 sig. This was before they adopted the Sig so I don't know if they are still using those criteria.

When DHS was created ICE had at one time or another elements of the former INS, USCS, FPS, FAM and UCSC Air and Marine (AMO).

These entities used a mix of .40, .357 sig, .38 spl and 9mm. When ICE got assigned to do the first “DHS” handgun testing in 2004 /2005 they were testing everything in all three semi calibers.

ICE is now mostly doing testing for itself and has gone to 9mm for all handguns and SMG.

Around 2015 ? in preparation for the handgun testing that resulted in adoption of the 320 in 9mm they did another round of 9mm ammo testing to decide whether to switch to 147 grain JHP (essentials Speer G2) or stick with the 114 grain +P Gold Dot. They would up sticking with 124. AFAIK they mirrored the FBI standards but I’ll check.