I don’t carry a gun anymore.

[pangloss]

I almost always burn a pistol mag or two at the 100 yard steel if I’m shooting rifles and as far as I can in a pistol bay. But when it comes down to it it’s not because I’m preparing for a left handed albino nazi Eskimo midget active shooter. It’s because hitting steel at distance makes me giggle on the inside like a 7yo kid playing in a sprinkler. If it wasn’t still fun I wouldn’t do it, like practicing lots of reloads.

I have some steel targets at my parents house, but that's a couple of hours away and I only make it home every month or two. The steel is a lot of fun though, and I don't have to worry about coordinating the distance I'm shooting with other shooters. I got some new steel targets last winter, and I really should play around with those from longer ranges. Just playing around over the years, I've gone out to 200 yards with my Glock and 300 yards with my Blackhawk on a big gong at a friends range.

I might suggest varying that up with different size targets at 7.

It’s not the distance that’s difficult, it’s the mechanics.

Hitting a 1-2” circle at 7 scales out to a good hit at 25.

You might only have a small available target at 7 if there are bystanders, bad guy with armor, or partial cover like a car or doorway.

Heck, even if someone is standing sideways to you, it cuts the target size down to a third of an open target.

It was just my plea to the “7 yard” shooter crew that didn’t want to shoot at distance that they can at least work on semi-surrogate trigger mechanics at closer distances if they hold themselves to higher standards.

I mean, I don't shoot ONLY at 7 yards. The last time I went to the range, I shot some from 15 yards too. It's been a long time since I've shot paper from 25 though. However, I probably spend half my ammo shooting at 2" dots from 7 yards. LTT targets are great for dots (LINK), and I love my little green 2" stickers on white 3"x5" stickers. I'm usually ~90% on the 2" dots with my G19, and I've gone 14/15 before from 7 yards. (Those numbers may be slightly optimistic, since my shooting volume has dropped.) Performance with my G26 and G43 is not as good. I've got a lot of work to do before I can shoot 90% on the 1" squares from 7 yards with any pistol. Anyway, I just want to be clear that I'm not burning through boxes of ammo barely staying on paper on silhouette targets.

[41magfan]

I answered a burglary in progress call once where I found the burglar cowering on his back sniveling for mercy while the homeowner stood over him pointing a .22LR NAA mini revolver at him. The burglar had a kitchen knife and a screwdriver on the ground nearby.
The utter musteline willingness to shoot someone paradoxically means you very rarely have to.
The viciousness I've seen over the last 32 years leaves me no desire to be at the "mercy" of some low down murdering trash out of Hell.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more. I too have witnessed what "helplessness" really looks like, and I will not allow myself to be in such a circumstance voluntarily. My preparations may not holdup in time of need, but I WILL NOT be a passive participant in the well-being of me and mine.

[rob_s]

Soon the OP will tell us that he no longer wears a seatbelt because he's never been in a car accident and doesn't expect that to change ....

Funnily enough, you’re more likely to get in a car accident than a gunfight, so…

[rob_s]

Something else on the general topic of self defense…

I have come to the conclusion that there are two types of people
1) those that react to fear/pain with anger
2) those that react to fear/pain with tears

It is my opinion that it is nigh impossible for 2s to survive a violent encounter, no matter the tools at hand, no matter the training, because they are genetically ill-equipped to respond in the means sometimes necessary. These are the guys you hear about (DeFoor tells one story) that sit in the corner while their wife and kids are raped and murdered and then get killed themselves (or, worse, don’t get killed).

I am also of the opinion that, while clearly not invincible, 1s are pretty well genetically equipped to prevail even without the requisite tools. These are the guys you hear about that take the attacker’s gun and shoot him and his two buddies with it.

I meet a lot of guys in the shooting world that think they are 1s. Talk to them for 15 minutes and you can pretty quickly asses that they are actually 2s that are likely to get their own gun shoved up their ass sideways. Lots of them think a class and a mindset lecture (see DeFoor note above) are going to fix it. It’s not.

At nearly 48 years old I *think* I know which one I am but we’ll never really know until truly tested. I’ve had a few minor tests over the years, but never “the balloon” or “the elephant”. If I turn out to be wrong, I won’t be wrong for long.

However, I’m fairly confident that the OP is a 1.

[Oldherkpilot]

At nearly 48 years old I *think* I know which one I am but we’ll never really know until truly tested. I’ve had a few minor tests over the years, but never “the balloon” or “the elephant”. If I turn out to be wrong, I won’t be wrong for long.

Reminds me of a couple of old sayings. "A pistol is a lot like a parachute: if you ever need one and don't have one, you probably won't ever need one again." And "If you jump and your parachute malfunctions, you'll have the rest of your life to fix it."

[Trooper224]

Soon the OP will tell us that he no longer wears a seatbelt because he's never been in a car accident and doesn't expect that to change ....

Not everyone believes in ATSBATT.

[Beast17]

No. It's just a state standard qual per the LEOSA reg. But that was kind of the point about average shooter, average standard, minimal decay from lack of training.

So to clarify this and my previous post - I am not endorsing failure to train or in any way claiming training doesn't matter. It was just a follow on to the observation that highly trained shooters don't seem to significantly deteriorate from a period of minimal or no training and the subsequent question of whether an average shooter would be similar.

I think that long term, regular training sticks pretty well, even if that level of training is kind of average. In the example of my wife, she regularly trained quarterly for a little over 20 years to a fairly typical LEO standard where her performance was regularly above average, not fantastic or spectacular or whatever, but solidly above average. And after a near decade of atrophy she still shoots about the same. We aren't talking bullseye here where a minimal decay is immediately noticeable. It's a LEO qual. Everything is par time and the target is pretty big. Is she slower and less accurate? Probably. Certainly? But on a standard state LEO qual you can't notice a difference.

[jh9]

Something else on the general topic of self defense…

I have come to the conclusion that there are two types of people
1) those that react to fear/pain with anger
2) those that react to fear/pain with tears

...

I am also of the opinion that, while clearly not invincible, 1s are pretty well genetically equipped to prevail even without the requisite tools. These are the guys you hear about that take the attacker’s gun and shoot him and his two buddies with it.

Calling it a low probability event is fine because that's what it is.

But that last part there just seems super, super optimistic. Awareness, avoidance, etc are good tools to have and can probably handle most things you'll see. But it's not a matter of being invincible. That shit sounds like a great way for the last thing you did in life was to be "victim #7" on some shithead's criminal record. I mean, sure. It's better than rolling over and just accepting your fate but... if you want to talk about low probability events the notion of "prevailing even without the requisite tools" is lottery ticket level good luck no matter how fast you think you are with a clinch pick.

Graveyards got plenty of hard men and soft men alike, all buried in the same size hole. It may be rare that your number comes up without drugs/gangs in your daily life. But if it does I sure wouldn't count on the guy who kicks things off being what you call a "type 2".

[BWT]

Ive got free time this morning so I’m perusing GD more than usual.

I think when bad actors have been characterized as Predators it’s how I quantify threats.

I think looking at how predators hunt is honestly how you should consider yourself and this paradigm.

A water Buffalo for example is safe from a single lion. A gazelle is not. A lion or a crocodile surviving off of identifying the appropriate opportunities for food is good at hiding itself and has learned through various ways how and what kind of animals to attack. They know when to let the water Buffalo by or if there’s a group of lions, they may go for it. If it’s a crocodile they won’t go more than likely for a hippopotamus, but they’ll probably for a deer or any other animal going for a drink.

I think criminals are the same. A single lion or bad guy is often not going to go after a single guy. But maybe a child or maybe a woman. My wife’s very concerned about our kids being sexually molested. She found an interesting study that said that a large number of pedophiles target single parent homes with small children. They’ll go help the single mother and try to find an in with that child.

It makes sense (while repulsive and honestly makes me mad). Smaller women are typically also abducted. I think looking at the statistics there are less threats to an adult male than probably any other age or gender. But that doesn’t mean there’s none. I think my concern and some others concerns is by the time you find that threat. You’re going to be seriously behind the power curve. I think as men - we also can afford often to not think about being raped, abducted, or murdered, etc. as frequently because there’s a lower risk.

After getting married I realized the things I don’t often think about when talking with my wife as I’ve been 6’0” and somewhere between 210-270 lbs since about 14. I’ve been that way for 20 years now.

I also think the good “lions” or whatever out there you may or may not see it coming. Once you see it coming and that pack of lions decides it’s your time. Will you be ready? A quote I look at from Tom Givens I believe is “We need a 2-3 bad guy gun now” is also why in my frame and stature I carry a full-size handgun and reload for this reason.

I asked my wife about carrying a gun again after this discussion. She is now okay with the thought of wanting an option to defend herself and the kids. But, she’s concerned about the higher risk of having a gun in a purse or accessible/potentially accessible to kids. My 1.5 year old climbed three steps of an A-frame ladder this week. I now have three safes in the house because these kids are smart.

I know South Narc had a MUC class and apparently a video course. I think that and learning to read body language would be very helpful to all of pre-indicators.

[JCN]

I mean, I don't shoot ONLY at 7 yards. The last time I went to the range, I shot some from 15 yards too. It's been a long time since I've shot paper from 25 though. However, I probably spend half my ammo shooting at 2" dots from 7 yards. LTT targets are great for dots (LINK), and I love my little green 2" stickers on white 3"x5" stickers. I'm usually ~90% on the 2" dots with my G19, and I've gone 14/15 before from 7 yards. (Those numbers may be slightly optimistic, since my shooting volume has dropped.) Performance with my G26 and G43 is not as good. I've got a lot of work to do before I can shoot 90% on the 1" squares from 7 yards with any pistol. Anyway, I just want to be clear that I'm not burning through boxes of ammo barely staying on paper on silhouette targets.

Okay! Thanks for clarifying.

I’ll then make a more advanced recommendation to you: when you work your 2” dots work the variety of cadence and accept different standards of hits at different paces.

Do everything on a timer.




That’s my 100% pace. I have margin in the spread. It’s like shooting at steel pace.

But I test at faster and just barely:





That’s my paper pace (where a border hit is fine).

Then I go for testing even faster pace and cadence.



Single shot 7 yards untimed IMO is a waste. You can do all of that (and better) in dry fire.

On the range, take advantage of managing recoil and combining shots.